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ShareThisSack trivia
I've been busy lately. Fortunately, Chase and JKL and have been doing a great job of keeping things lively around here. I'll continue to busy for awhile, but I have no excuse for not kicking in with at least a trivial post or two per week, especially with this new game log data we have.
So here we go...
Using the game log data, I have attempted to estimate how many times each defensive player has sacked each quarterback. If Lawrence Taylor gets two sacks in a particular game and Steve Grogan is the only opposing quarterback to attempt a pass in that game, we can be pretty confident that LT sacked Grogan twice. But if LT gets two sacks in a game where Tommy Kramer and Wade Wilson both got playing time against the Giants, we're not sure how many times he sacked each of them. Unfortunately, we don't have game-by-game sack records for the sackees, so the best we can do is divvy them up proportionally according to how many passes each of them attempted. In that case, Kramer attempted 25 and Wilson 6. So we credit LT with 1.61 sacks against Kramer and 0.39 against Wilson. It's a kludge, but we're just having fun here.
So assuming that methodology for estimating how many times each player sacked each other, here is the all-time list. The Pct column tells you what percentage of the sacker's career sacks came against this particular sackee.
Sacker Sackee Est. Sacks Pct ============================================================ Bruce Smith Ken O'Brien 17.28 8.05 Greg Townsend Dave Krieg 16.79 14.35 Dexter Manley Phil Simms 16.50 15.64 Derrick Thomas John Elway 16.35 12.30 Derrick Thomas Dave Krieg 15.00 11.28 Neil Smith John Elway 14.91 13.08 Peter Boulware Mark Brunell 14.21 19.47 Leslie O'Neal Dave Krieg 14.11 10.49 Lawrence Taylor Randall Cunningham 13.58 9.77 Reggie White Neil Lomax 13.33 6.35 Michael Strahan Donovan McNabb 13.14 8.70 Jacob Green John Elway 12.97 12.84 Greg Townsend John Elway 12.52 10.70 Reggie White Phil Simms 12.45 5.93
Kevin Carter Steve Beuerlein 12.31 11.35 Bruce Smith Drew Bledsoe 12.28 5.73 Bryant Young Marc Bulger 12.01 12.98 Simeon Rice Aaron Brooks 11.85 9.19 Mark Gastineau Mike Pagel 11.39 13.98 Bruce Smith Dan Marino 11.23 5.24 Leonard Marshall Randall Cunningham 11.20 12.37 Dexter Manley Neil Lomax 11.14 10.56 Kevin Greene Chris Chandler 11.09 6.62 Pat Swilling Chris Miller 11.00 10.14 Leslie O'Neal John Elway 10.98 8.16 Rickey Jackson Chris Miller 10.95 8.36 Aaron Schobel Tom Brady 10.95 16.10 Simeon Rice Donovan McNabb 10.92 8.46 Brent Williams Jim Kelly 10.76 23.66 John Randle Brett Favre 10.68 7.60 Derrick Thomas Jeff George 10.67 8.02 Greg Ellis Donovan McNabb 10.66 13.66 Lawrence Taylor Ron Jaworski 10.58 7.61 Warren Sapp Brett Favre 10.55 10.34 Robert Porcher Brett Favre 10.43 10.75 Jason Taylor Tom Brady 10.39 8.62 Leslie O'Neal Rick Mirer 10.31 7.66 Charles Mann Randall Cunningham 10.30 11.07 Lee Williams John Elway 10.07 12.06 Lee Williams Dave Krieg 9.96 11.93 Clyde Simmons Troy Aikman 9.94 7.89 Freddie Joe Nunn Randall Cunningham 9.93 14.49 Pat Swilling Jim Everett 9.74 8.98 Jim Jeffcoat Phil Simms 9.54 8.68 Julian Peterson Marc Bulger 9.50 18.63 Curtis Greer Ron Jaworski 9.49 18.79 Jeff Cross Ken O'Brien 9.47 15.91 William Fuller Boomer Esiason 9.45 9.04 John Randle Scott Mitchell 9.32 6.63 La'Roi Glover Tony Banks 9.26 11.09 Bryant Young Chris Chandler 9.19 9.93 Bruce Smith Jeff George 9.19 4.28 Lawrence Taylor Neil Lomax 8.89 6.40 Dexter Manley Randall Cunningham 8.88 8.42 Reggie White Troy Aikman 8.84 4.21 Leslie O'Neal Jeff George 8.81 6.55 Anthony Smith John Elway 8.81 14.81 Howie Long Bill Kenney 8.73 9.93 Ray Childress Boomer Esiason 8.68 11.06 Jason Gildon Jeff Blake 8.66 10.19 Rickey Jackson Jim Everett 8.65 6.60 Too Tall Jones Phil Simms 8.59 13.42 Jacob Green Marc Wilson 8.57 8.48 Andre Tippett Ken O'Brien 8.55 8.46 Michael Sinclair John Elway 8.50 11.56 Simon Fletcher Bernie Kosar 8.50 8.21 Chris Doleman Randall Cunningham 8.44 5.36 Bryce Paup Vinny Testaverde 8.39 10.63 Bill Pickel Dave Krieg 8.38 14.45 Bryce Paup Jim Harbaugh 8.28 10.48 Terrell Suggs Ben Roethlisberger 8.17 14.34 Renaldo Turnbull Steve Young 8.14 17.14 Jevon Kearse Mark Brunell 8.11 10.40 Chike Okeafor Marc Bulger 8.06 15.65 Michael Strahan Jake Plummer 8.01 5.31 Andre Tippett Dave Krieg 8.00 7.92 DeMarcus Ware Eli Manning 8.00 14.68 Osi Umenyiora Donovan McNabb 7.97 18.32 Warren Sapp Charlie Batch 7.95 7.79 Richard Dent Steve DeBerg 7.90 5.34 Clyde Simmons John Elway 7.88 6.25 Ken Harvey Troy Aikman 7.87 8.84 Derrick Thomas Jim Kelly 7.86 5.91 La'Roi Glover Steve Beuerlein 7.85 9.40 John Randle Jim Harbaugh 7.82 5.57 Sean Jones John Elway 7.76 6.41 Kevin Greene Chris Miller 7.72 4.61 Reggie White Trent Dilfer 7.69 3.66 Andre Tippett Jim Kelly 7.68 7.60 Tony Tolbert Randall Cunningham 7.65 11.16 Chris Doleman Jim Harbaugh 7.62 4.83 Simon Fletcher Jeff Hostetler 7.59 7.34 Henry Thomas Steve Young 7.56 7.83 Richard Dent Marc Wilson 7.55 5.10 Lawrence Taylor Joe Theismann 7.54 5.42 Fred Dean Dave Wilson 7.53 22.16 Chris Doleman Don Majkowski 7.53 4.78 Burt Grossman Dave Krieg 7.50 16.30 Jim Jeffcoat Joe Theismann 7.50 6.82 Lance Johnstone Joey Harrington 7.50 10.42 Jim Flanigan Charlie Batch 7.49 16.28 Leonard Marshall Neil Lomax 7.46 8.25 Monte Coleman Phil Simms 7.46 15.54 John Abraham Drew Bledsoe 7.44 8.66 Lawrence Taylor Gary Hogeboom 7.43 5.35 Mike Rucker Aaron Brooks 7.41 12.90 Jason Gildon Mark Brunell 7.39 8.69 Lawrence Taylor Jay Schroeder 7.37 5.30 Dave Butz Ron Jaworski 7.36 19.12 Dwight Freeney David Carr 7.35 9.36 Richard Dent Vinny Testaverde 7.28 4.92 Richard Dent Randy Wright 7.26 4.91 Wayne Martin Steve Young 7.26 8.69 Bruce Smith Warren Moon 7.25 3.38 Bryce Paup Craig Erickson 7.23 9.15 Patrick Kerney Kurt Warner 7.22 8.97 Curtis Greer Danny White 7.22 14.30 Ezra Johnson Jim McMahon 7.22 12.67 Henry Thomas Vinny Testaverde 7.22 7.48 George Martin Neil Lomax 7.20 14.69 Donnell Thompson Ken O'Brien 7.15 17.87 Chuck Smith Steve Young 7.14 12.00 Dexter Manley Ron Jaworski 7.12 6.75 Michael McCrary Steve McNair 7.11 9.23 Jason Gildon Steve McNair 7.10 8.35 Doug Martin Lynn Dickey 7.06 13.85 Tony Brackens Kordell Stewart 7.04 11.93 Trent Cole Eli Manning 7.00 19.44 Robert Mathis David Carr 7.00 12.28 Andy Harmon Troy Aikman 7.00 17.72 Wayne Martin Chris Miller 7.00 8.38 Charles Haley Jim McMahon 6.97 6.25 Kevin Greene Phil Simms 6.97 4.16 Jim Wilks Joe Montana 6.96 15.13 Clay Matthews Warren Moon 6.96 9.73 Lawrence Taylor Steve DeBerg 6.95 5.00 Simon Fletcher Jay Schroeder 6.95 6.71 Mark Gastineau Tony Eason 6.95 8.52 Too Tall Jones Neil Lomax 6.94 10.84 Richard Dent Joe Montana 6.93 4.68 Karl Mecklenburg Dave Krieg 6.93 8.55 Jim Jeffcoat Neil Lomax 6.90 6.27 Joey Porter Tom Brady 6.89 7.74 Warren Sapp Steve McNair 6.88 6.75 Chad Brown Jim Harbaugh 6.88 8.09 Simeon Rice Kerry Collins 6.87 5.33 Tim Johnson Randall Cunningham 6.81 19.75 Leonard Marshall Ron Jaworski 6.80 7.52 Alfred Williams Neil O'Donnell 6.78 10.85 Art Still Marc Wilson 6.66 13.45 Aaron Schobel Chad Pennington 6.62 9.74 Freddie Joe Nunn Phil Simms 6.57 9.60 Keith Willis Warren Moon 6.52 10.69 Reggie White Chris Miller 6.50 3.10 Chad Brown Mark Brunell 6.50 7.65 Grant Wistrom Aaron Brooks 6.50 11.02 Sean Jones Bernie Kosar 6.50 5.37 Tracy Scroggins Brett Favre 6.50 10.66 Charles Mann Phil Simms 6.50 6.99 Jevon Kearse Eli Manning 6.50 8.33 Randy White Neil Lomax 6.49 10.63 Garin Veris Ken O'Brien 6.47 16.17 Michael Dean Perry Bubby Brister 6.44 10.56 Richard Dent Phil Simms 6.43 4.35 Jeff Lageman Jim Kelly 6.42 13.38 Dwight Freeney Steve McNair 6.37 8.12 Chris Doleman Chris Chandler 6.37 4.04 Derrick Thomas Stan Humphries 6.36 4.78 Jim Jeffcoat Randall Cunningham 6.33 5.76 Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila Brad Johnson 6.33 8.23 Greg Brown Neil Lomax 6.29 11.97 Simeon Rice Michael Vick 6.27 4.86 Doug Betters Mike Pagel 6.27 13.78 Bryant Young Tony Banks 6.26 6.77 Ray Childress Neil O'Donnell 6.23 7.94 Michael Strahan Kurt Warner 6.21 4.12 Jeff Bryant John Elway 6.21 9.62 Mike Vrabel Chad Pennington 6.19 9.68 Robert Porcher Trent Dilfer 6.19 6.38 Mike Mamula Dave M. Brown 6.18 19.03 Trace Armstrong Rob Johnson 6.18 5.33 Alphonso Carreker Steve Young 6.17 24.67 Kevin Greene Joe Montana 6.16 3.68 Steve McMichael Joe Montana 6.15 6.12 Frank Warren Chris Miller 6.15 11.08 Chris Doleman Vinny Testaverde 6.12 3.89 Bruce Smith John Elway 6.12 2.85 Sean Jones Dave Krieg 6.09 5.03 Rickey Jackson Steve Young 6.08 4.64 Bruce Smith Boomer Esiason 6.04 2.82 Jason Taylor Drew Bledsoe 6.03 5.01 Brent Williams Ken O'Brien 6.03 13.26 Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila Daunte Culpepper 6.00 7.79 Simon Fletcher Dave Krieg 6.00 5.80 Henry Thomas Don Majkowski 6.00 6.22 Leslie O'Neal Chris Chandler 6.00 4.46 Maa Tanuvasa Rich Gannon 6.00 16.67 Mike Bell Ken Anderson 6.00 15.00 Erik Howard Randall Cunningham 6.00 17.91 Hugh Douglas Jake Plummer 6.00 7.14 Gary Jeter Steve Beuerlein 6.00 10.71 Rufus Porter John Elway 6.00 14.63 Freddie Joe Nunn Vinny Testaverde 6.00 8.76 Mike Vrabel Peyton Manning 6.00 9.38 Neil Smith Warren Moon 6.00 5.26 Trevor Pryce Mark Brunell 6.00 7.02
This entry was posted on Tuesday, April 21st, 2009 at 5:27 am and is filed under Trivia. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
This is pretty cool. I grew up watching plenty of Jets and Giants games and I find it funny how Bruce Smith and Dexter Manley always seemed to be mashing the New York QBs of the '80s. Seeing this list only confirms what I thought had been going on for some time.
Also, I have always wished we could find a way to find sack totals pre-1982 in order to make better comparisons of the defensive players in different eras. Right now, we can only use things like AP1/PB/Starts/Playoff Appearances.
Derrick Thomas and Neil Smith vs John Elway (2 of the top 6) encapsulates the early 90s Chiefs-Broncos rivalry for me.
Has anyone seen any articles anywhere commenting on the lack of sacks in 2008?
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/passing.htm
2008 had the lowest sack numbers per team/game since the '50s (or ever recorded, depending on your view of '50s sack data) and the lowest perctentage of sacks per passes attempted (edging out 1994 by some fractional amount?). No doubt the abysmal sack totals of the Chiefs (ahh for the days of DT and Neil) contributed to these low totals, but I can't help but think these numbers have some significance.
I agree with Tony about the pre-1982 sack data. Of course, it was not official data then. But lots of teams get unofficial #'s--probably not game by game though.
I think there's a clue here to Brett Favre's longevity. Despite having the record for starts as a QB, he doesn't show up until around #30 on this list; a good O-line makes a big difference.
Re: MadMolecule
A division devoid of solid pass rushers for most of his career, with the possible exception of John Randle, helps as well.
New respect for Dave Krieg, who apparently got his ass kicked pretty routinely by everyone else in the AFC West, yet still made a pretty nice career of it.
Interesting stuff, particularly seeing Dexter Manley's name so high on the list. Manley might have been an all-time great if not for his addiction problems.
And man, John Elway got sacked a lot: 2 of the top 6 spots, 4 of the top 13, and 5 of the top 25.
I'm not sure what this means, but I noticed there aren't a lot of active players near the top of the list (on either side).
Brad-The active players will still be sacking, and getting sacked, which will move them closer to the top of the list as their careers continue. But it would be interesting to see the list on some type of per game basis.
Re: sacks prior to 1982. I have been keeping a list of defensive linemen from all teams who played in the '60s and '70s and how many sacks they had been credited with based on media guides, Pro football hall of fame bios, press releases, a plethora of football publications, and newspaper archives. But I run into problems because there is no consistency in how the sack totals are registered. For instance, one source has Claude Humphrey with 15 sacks in 1976 and another has him with 18. One source had Jack Youngblood with 14.5 sacks in 1976 while another said he had 11 solo and 3 assists, which don't add up to 14.5
Some media guides mention solo sacks and assists but do not credit half-sacks whereas other media guides do credit half-sacks and don't break it down into solos and assists. Also, the NFL office at one time was pretty clear that it is sometimes difficult to credit the right person with the sack because even though the one who might make the actual tackle and get credited with the sack, he may not be the one who forced the play into a sack. Plus you can have as much as three defenders converging on the quarterback at one time - one grabbing the leg, one grabbing the shoulder pad/jersey, and yet another jarring the QB's belt buckle.
I have actually seen this happen on game films where it was next to impossible to tell who really should get the credit for the sack. You start to get into operational definitions of what a sack constitutes.
Brad O.----That's the BIG QUESTION about sacks-Elway holds the NFL Record but so what. He is also the same guy that led his Team to more Super Bowls (5) than any other QB in the S.B. era (although Bart Starr should get credit for 5 also, IMO).
Osi makes the list: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200709300nyg.htm
On Elway - 1st, he played a lot of seasons, so obviously he got sacked a lot, cumulatively.
2nd, he ran (scrambled) a lot. He's #6 among post-1960 QBs for rushing yards. Some of this is due to playing a lot of seasons, but he averaged over 200 yards rushing a year, which is top 20 for qbs. Running (scrambling) qbs often get sacked a lot. That boosted his career totals.
And his long career with the same team overlapped with several DE/pass-rushing LBs who also had long careers with the same team in a period with no realignment in the AFC West. So they played each other a lot.
Re: Mad Molecule- having watched Favre from 1992-2007 I can tell you he had a great line for a few years (see 2003 for the best example). However he also backpedaled after almost every throw and his off-the-back-foot mechanics meant he was moving away from the defense on a lot of his throws.
If you watch late in his career especially, he would run 10-15 or more yards backward on almost every pass and even on handoffs. Sure he'd still throw the occasional cut block on a reverse but he wasn't exactly putting his body on the line. Plus when McCarthy came around, Favre spent a ton of time in the shotgun.
The increased usage of spread/shotgun/West Coast offenses has definitely contributed to low sack numbers, to be sure, in addition to whatever year the offensive holding rules were changed. Plus QBs can ground if outside the tackle box, etc., there's a lot of reasons that sacks are reduced. That, too, was a rule change within my lifetime.
Another interesting one is Dan Marino. Bruce Smith got him 11 times, but nobody else got him more than 6 times.
But as I think about it, I can't remember any great pass rushers in the AFC East between 1983 and 1999.
capnjiffy, I remember watching some show (NFL Films maybe) a year or so ago about Favre that showed clips of all the backpedaling after passes. The suggestion was that this constant backward motion not only limited sacks, but also limited the amount of hits he took after throwing the ball. This is one more factor that probably contributed to his longevity.
There are a lot of things to consider when analyzing sack totals. Some guys are just plain good at avoiding sacks regardless of who is coming after them. Elway was much more mobile than Marino, but was sacked more because Marino is well-known for his mobility within the pocket. He was routinely one of the least sacked QBs in the league; which is surprising considering how many times he dropped back. Then there are sack machines like Rob Johnson who consider it their job to take sacks. He got sacked like once every 8 pass attempts (or some ridiculous total around there)
Marino had some of the best interior offensive linemen in the league. Dwight Stephenson, at center, is Hall of Fame caliber. Right guard Ed Newman was a Pro Bowler. So was left guard Roy Foster. No one would ever dispute Marino's quick release, but he was a sitting duck behind the line. But what a line it was!
Patrick:
You memory is a bit off. Newman and Marino only played 1 year together. Stephenson was great, but Marino only had him till '87 then played 12 more years without him.
(That being said he DID have Webb and Sims for 18 seasons and 10 Pro-Bowls)
Here are the career sack rate of some of the great QBs of the 80's-90's, some more "mobile" than others.
Marino 1.12/gm
Manning 1.16/gm
Montana 1.63/gm
Favre 1.72/gm
Brady 1.80/gm
Kelly 2.01/gm
Young 2.12/gm
Mooon 2.20/gm
Elway 2.21/gm
Now let's look at 3 great offensive lines:
Oakland ('71-'75) Otto, Upshaw, Shell
143 sacks/70 games = 2.0 sacks per game
Dallas ('92-'96) Stepnoski, Newton, Tuinei, Williams, Allen
112 sacks/80 gms = 1.4 sacks per game
Washington ('86-'91) Jacoby, Grimm, Lachey, McKenzie, Bostic, Schlereth
131 sacks/95 games = 1.36 sacks per game
With Schroeder taking most of the snaps in '86 and '87, "The Hogs" gave up 1.71 sacks per game. With Rypien taking a majority of the snaps, "The Hogs" allowed 1.26 sacks per game. It seems that one of those QBs was better at avoiding sacks than the other. In 1991, Rypien took just 7 sacks in 421 attempts.
I am not trying to discount any great offensive lines, or say that Marino was the greatest. There is something to be said about a guy finds a way to avoid sacks.
P.S. I found the data on Rob Johnson. 140 sacks taken in 48 games (2.92 sacks per game).
Pass attempts between sacks:
R. Johnson 5.8
D.Marino 31.3
Richie, Andre Tippett wasn't bad — he's in the HoF.
The Bucs' offensive line in the mid-80s must rank as one of the worst ever — hence the crazy Alphonso Carreker/Steve Young stat.