SITE NEWS: We are moving all of our site and company news into a single blog for Sports-Reference.com. We'll tag all PFR content, so you can quickly and easily find the content you want.
Also, our existing PFR blog rss feed will be redirected to the new site's feed.
Pro-Football-Reference.com » Sports Reference
For more from Chase and Jason, check out their work at Football Perspective and The Big Lead.
ShareThisGreat Defensive Linemen Playing Together
Last week, I wrote a post on Great Linebackers Playing Together; it's worth checking out before reading this, as I'm going to skip some of the introductory materials. Just as last post was not a look at the greatest linebacking groups ever, this post is not a look at the greatest defensive line units ever assembled. We might attempt to do that one day, but that's not the goal today. What I want to know is what teams have seen a bunch of great defensive linemen playing together while those players were in their primes?
Once again, I'm using Doug's Approximate Value system to rate the linemen, as opposed to things like sacks, tackles, Pro Bowl nominations or starts. Approximate value incorporates all of those factors, and a little more. It's far from perfect, but it's probably the best way to rank large groups of players from several different eras across every position.
I recorded the peak three years for every defensive lineman since '50, and assigned the average of those numbers as the core rating for each player. Then I gave him an age adjusted score for each season. Once again, the age adjusted score is the rating I’m giving each DL for each season of play, not his actual AV grade.
Last time, I adjusted for age by examing the top 100 or so linebackers in NFL history and their dropoff rates, as measured by AV, and then smoothed out the numbers. In an effort to get this post actually posted and not placed on my imaginary to-do list, I chose to simply use the same dropoff rate again and not derive one specifically for defensive linemen. Here is the rate:
age weight 21 0.24 22 0.43 23 0.58 24 0.72 25 0.82 26 0.91 27 0.96 28 0.99 29 1.00 30 0.98 31 0.94 32 0.87 33 0.77 34 0.65 35 0.51 36 0.40
To use an example, Reggie White has a peak AV — the average score of his three best seasons — of 20. Mike Rucker has a peak AV of 11; here’s how we would then project how good each player would have been for each season of his career:
age weight White Rucker 21 0.24 4.9 2.7 22 0.43 8.5 4.7 23 0.58 11.7 6.4 24 0.72 14.3 7.9 25 0.82 16.5 9.1 26 0.91 18.1 10.0 27 0.96 19.3 10.6 28 0.99 19.9 10.9 29 1.00 20.0 11.0 30 0.98 19.6 10.8 31 0.94 18.7 10.3 32 0.87 17.3 9.5 33 0.77 15.4 8.5 34 0.65 13.0 7.2 35 0.51 10.1 5.6 36 0.40 8.0 4.4
Obviously these numbers are far from perfect; the goal is simply to get, roughly, the quality of the production we would find in each season from, approximately, the best defensive linemen ever. I think the results below pass the sniff test; what do you think?
These represent the 40 best combinations of 4-3 defensive linemen playing together at their peaks. The top combination -- by far -- comes from the old Vikings teams. In fact, the top six combinations are all the same: Page, Eller, Larsen and Marshall from the '68 to '73 Vikings. For obvious reasons I decided not to re-list any DL groups that appeared more often than once. Therefore, any time a set of DL appeared multiple times, I only listed the best one (which would be based solely on the ages of the three players). So it's the '70 Vikings that are shown from that group because the seasons after that Marshall was declining due to age and the seasons before that Page was still too young.
The player's age is listed in parentheses while his peak AV (which is NOT the grade he gets for the season in question -- the listed grade is not adjusted for age) is listed after the colon. So in 1970, Minnesota had Eller (age 28) who had a peak AV of 22, Page (at age 25) who had a peak AV of 23.7, Larsen (30) who had a peak AV of 14.3 and Jim Marshall (33) who had a peak AV of 13.3. No other defensive line group even comes that close to the Purple People Eaters. I've listed the average score (which *is* age adjusted) of the four players next to the team name. You can see that Minnesota at 16.4 has a nice edge on all other defensive line groups.
min-1970 16.4 Carl Eller (28): 22 Alan Page (25): 23.7 Gary Larsen (30): 14.3 Jim Marshall (33): 13.3
ram-1967 14.6 Deacon Jones (29): 18 Merlin Olsen (27): 18 Roger Brown (30): 16 Lamar Lundy (32): 8.3
dal-1981 14.3 Randy White (28): 17.7 Too Tall Jones (30): 14.7 Harvey Martin (31): 14.3 John Dutton (30): 12
chi-1987 14.1 Dan Hampton (30): 17.7 Steve McMichael (30): 16.7 Richard Dent (27): 16.3 William Perry (25): 8.7
chi-1988 14.0 Dan Hampton (31): 17.7 Richard Dent (28): 16.3 Steve McMichael (31): 16.7 Al Harris (32): 8.7
pit-1976 13.9 Joe Greene (30): 19 L.C. Greenwood (30): 16.3 Dwight White (27): 12 Ernie Holmes (28): 9.3
min-1974 13.8 Alan Page (29): 23.7 Carl Eller (32): 22 Doug Sutherland (26): 9.3 Jim Marshall (37): 13.3
phi-1991 13.6 Reggie White (30): 20 Clyde Simmons (27): 15.3 Jerome Brown (26): 13.3 Mike Pitts (31): 8.7
ram-1969 13.6 Merlin Olsen (29): 18 Deacon Jones (31): 18 Coy Bacon (27): 11 Diron Talbert (25): 11
chi-1984 13.6 Dan Hampton (27): 17.7 Steve McMichael (27): 16.7 Richard Dent (24): 16.3 Mike Hartenstine (31): 10.3
ram-1968 13.5 Merlin Olsen (28): 18 Deacon Jones (30): 18 Roger Brown (31): 16 Gregg Schumacher (26): 3.7
ram-1965 13.2 Deacon Jones (27): 18 Merlin Olsen (25): 18 Rosey Grier (33): 16.3 Lamar Lundy (30): 8.3
ram-1978 13.1 Jack Youngblood (28): 18 Larry Brooks (28): 13 Fred Dryer (32): 14 Cody Jones (27): 10
cle-1953 13.1 Len Ford (27): 20.7 Don Colo (28): 15.3 Doug Atkins (23): 16 Derrell Palmer (31): 8.3
cle-1954 13.0 Len Ford (28): 20.7 Don Colo (29): 15.3 John Kissell (31): 10 Carlton Massey (24): 9.7
cle-1957 13.0 Len Ford (31): 20.7 Don Colo (32): 15.3 Bob Gain (28): 13 Bill Quinlan (25): 8
dal-1980 13.0 Randy White (27): 17.7 Too Tall Jones (29): 14.7 Harvey Martin (30): 14.3 Larry Cole (34): 9.7
pit-1977 12.9 Joe Greene (31): 19 L.C. Greenwood (31): 16.3 Dwight White (28): 12 Steve Furness (27): 7
tam-2002 12.8 Warren Sapp (30): 19 Simeon Rice (28): 16.7 Greg Spires (28): 9.3 Anthony McFarland (25): 8.3
phi-1990 12.7 Reggie White (29): 20 Clyde Simmons (26): 15.3 Jerome Brown (25): 13.3 Mike Golic (28): 6
pit-1978 12.6 Joe Greene (32): 19 L.C. Greenwood (32): 16.3 Dwight White (29): 12 John Banaszak (28): 8
clt-1957 12.6 Gino Marchetti (30): 17.3 Gene Lipscomb (26): 13.7 Art Donovan (32): 13.7 Don Joyce (28): 9.3
nyg-1952 12.6 Arnie Weinmeister (29): 20 Ray Poole (31): 11.7 Ray Krouse (25): 12.7 Jim Duncan (27): 9.3
dal-1978 12.6 Randy White (25): 17.7 Harvey Martin (28): 14.3 Too Tall Jones (27): 14.7 Jethro Pugh (34): 11.3
min-1966 12.5 Carl Eller (24): 22 Jim Marshall (29): 13.3 Gary Larsen (26): 14.3 Paul Dickson (29): 8
nyg-1959 12.5 Rosey Grier (27): 16.3 Jim Katcavage (25): 16 Andy Robustelli (34): 18.3 Dick Modzelewski (28): 9
min-1967 12.3 Carl Eller (25): 22 Jim Marshall (30): 13.3 Alan Page (22): 23.7 Paul Dickson (30): 8
ram-1976 12.3 Jack Youngblood (26): 18 Fred Dryer (30): 14 Larry Brooks (26): 13 Merlin Olsen (36): 18
gnb-1962 12.2 Willie Davis (28): 17.3 Henry Jordan (27): 17 Bill Quinlan (30): 8 Dave Hanner (32): 8.7
nyg-1951 12.2 Arnie Weinmeister (28): 20 Ray Poole (30): 11.7 Al DeRogatis (24): 12.7 Jim Duncan (26): 9.3
ram-1979 12.0 Jack Youngblood (29): 18 Larry Brooks (29): 13 Fred Dryer (33): 14 Mike Fanning (26): 7
clt-1960 12.0 Ordell Braase (28): 14 Gene Lipscomb (29): 13.7 Gino Marchetti (33): 17.3 Art Donovan (35): 13.7
rai-1995 11.9 Pat Swilling (31): 19 Chester McGlockton (26): 14 Jerry Ball (31): 11.7 Anthony Smith (28): 6.3
chi-1983 11.9 Dan Hampton (26): 17.7 Steve McMichael (26): 16.7 Mike Hartenstine (30): 10.3 Jim Osborne (34): 9.7
min-1992 11.9 Chris Doleman (31): 16.7 John Randle (25): 16 Henry Thomas (27): 11 Al Noga (27): 8.3
sea-1999 11.8 Cortez Kennedy (31): 17 Sam Adams (26): 13.3 Michael Sinclair (31): 11 Phillip Daniels (26): 10
tam-2001 11.8 Warren Sapp (29): 19 Simeon Rice (27): 16.7 Marcus Jones (28): 6.3 Anthony McFarland (24): 8.3
den-1997 11.8 Neil Smith (31): 15.3 Michael Dean Perry (32): 16 Alfred Williams (29): 11 Keith Traylor (28): 8
chi-1990 11.6 Richard Dent (30): 16.3 Dan Hampton (33): 17.7 William Perry (28): 8.7 Trace Armstrong (25): 10
sea-1996 11.6 Cortez Kennedy (28): 17 Michael Sinclair (28): 11 Michael McCrary (26): 12 Sam Adams (23): 13.3
- At #2 on the list is one of the iterations of the Fearsome Foursome, and in the top fifteen are some of the other members that bore that nickname; unsurprisingly, Deacon Jones and Merlin Olsen carry the group with appropriately high grades.
- Eagles fans surely noted that the '91 Philly DL is on the list; only a low peak AV for Mike Pitts kept them down.
- How about the New York Sack Exchange? A long time ago, Doug rated the 1981 Jets as the best sacking defense ever. That team had an average grade of 10.5, so they missed the cutoff here. Why? Joe Klecko and Mark Gastineau had high grades, but Abdul Salaam and Marty Lyons both have peak AVs in the 7s.
We can also perform this analysis for 3-4 defensive lines, although be sure to note my caveat at the bottom:
tm.yr grd DL1 DL2 DL3
buf-1995 13.0 Bruce Smith (32): 18.3 Ted Washington (27): 14 Phil Hansen (27): 10
buf-1988 12.6 Bruce Smith (25): 18.3 Fred Smerlas (31): 14 Art Still (33): 12.3
nyj-1985 12.3 Mark Gastineau (29): 17 Joe Klecko (32): 15.3 Barry Bennett (30): 6.7
mia-1984 12.3 Bob Baumhower (29): 16 Doug Betters (28): 12.3 Kim Bokamper (30): 8.7
rai-1987 11.8 Howie Long (27): 16.7 Bill Pickel (28): 10.7 Sean Jones (25): 10.7
kan-1993 11.3 Neil Smith (27): 15.3 Dan Saleaumua (29): 10.7 Joe Phillips (30): 8.7
den-1978 11.3 Lyle Alzado (29): 14.7 Rubin Carter (26): 11.3 Barney Chavous (27): 9.3
buf-1993 11.2 Bruce Smith (30): 18.3 Phil Hansen (25): 10 Jeff Wright (30): 7.7
nwe-2008 11.2 Richard Seymour (29): 15.3 Vince Wilfork (27): 10.3 Ty Warren (27): 8.7
kan-1991 11.1 Neil Smith (25): 15.3 Bill Maas (29): 10.3 Dan Saleaumua (27): 10.7
mia-1981 11.1 Bob Baumhower (26): 16 Doug Betters (25): 12.3 Vern Den Herder (33): 11
sfo-1990 11.0 Michael Carter (30): 14.7 Pierce Holt (28): 10.7 Kevin Fagan (27): 8.3
phi-1981 10.9 Charlie Johnson (29): 14.7 Carl Hairston (29): 10 Dennis Harrison (25): 9.7
phi-1985 10.9 Reggie White (24): 20 Greg Brown (28): 9.3 Ken Clarke (29): 9
sea-1988 10.8 Joe Nash (28): 12.7 Jacob Green (31): 11 Jeff Bryant (28): 9.7
rai-1989 10.7 Howie Long (29): 16.7 Bob Golic (32): 11.7 Scott Davis (24): 7.3
phi-1979 10.7 Charlie Johnson (27): 14.7 Carl Hairston (27): 10 Claude Humphrey (35): 16.3
gnb-1993 10.7 Reggie White (32): 20 Matt Brock (27): 8.3 John Jurkovic (26): 7.3
tam-1979 10.6 Wally Chambers (28): 13 Lee Roy Selmon (25): 15 Randy Crowder (26): 7.3
buf-1987 10.4 Fred Smerlas (30): 14 Bruce Smith (24): 18.3 Sean McNanie (26): 4.7
hou-1988 10.4 Ray Childress (26): 15.3 William Fuller (26): 12 Doug Smith (29): 6.3
buf-1985 10.3 Fred Smerlas (28): 14 Ben Williams (31): 9.7 Bruce Smith (22): 18.3
phi-1978 10.3 Charlie Johnson (26): 14.7 Carl Hairston (26): 10 Manny Sistrunk (31): 9
buf-1990 10.3 Bruce Smith (27): 18.3 Jeff Wright (27): 7.7 Leon Seals (26): 6.3
hou-1975 10.3 Curley Culp (29): 13 Elvin Bethea (29): 11.3 Tody Smith (27): 6.7
sfo-1991 10.1 Michael Carter (31): 14.7 Pierce Holt (29): 10.7 Larry Roberts (28): 6
den-1983 10.0 Rulon Jones (25): 13.7 Rubin Carter (31): 11.3 Barney Chavous (32): 9.3
nyj-2008 9.9 Kris Jenkins (29): 15.7 Shaun Ellis (31): 9 Kenyon Coleman (29): 5.7
min-1982 9.8 Charlie Johnson (30): 14.7 Mark Mullaney (29): 7.7 Doug Martin (25): 9
rai-1985 9.8 Howie Long (25): 16.7 Bill Pickel (26): 10.7 Lyle Alzado (36): 14.7
nyg-1992 9.7 Leonard Marshall (31): 13 Erik Howard (28): 10.3 Eric Dorsey (28): 6.7
sfo-1986 9.7 Michael Carter (26): 14.7 Dwaine Board (30): 10 Jeff Stover (28): 6
den-1987 9.7 Rulon Jones (29): 13.7 Greg Kragen (25): 11.7 Andre Townsend (25): 7
buf-2000 9.7 Ted Washington (32): 14 Phil Hansen (32): 10 Marcellus Wiley (26): 9
sfo-1987 9.6 Michael Carter (27): 14.7 Dwaine Board (31): 10 Pete Kugler (28): 5.3
tam-1981 9.5 Lee Roy Selmon (27): 15 Bill Kollar (29): 7.3 David Logan (25): 8.3
nyj-1997 9.5 Hugh Douglas (26): 16 Rick Lyle (26): 8.3 Ernie Logan (29): 6.3
tam-1982 9.4 Lee Roy Selmon (28): 15 David Logan (26): 8.3 Dave Stalls (27): 6
nyg-1989 9.4 Leonard Marshall (28): 13 Erik Howard (25): 10.3 John Washington (26): 7.3
pit-2006 9.3 Aaron Smith (30): 10.3 Casey Hampton (29): 10 Brett Keisel (28): 7.7
Some thoughts:
- The 3-4 rankings look less reliable than the 4-3 ratings because players who excelled in a 4-3 (say, Mark Gastineau) get a high rating as a 3-4 end. While I don't remember how he actually played as a 3-4 end, he wouldn't fit the typical mold of the current 3-4 end. If Dwight Freeney played in a 3-4 this season, he would get a high rating for his team because his peak AV was high -- but that was based on his peak seasons as a 4-3 end. So to some extent, some of these results could be misleading.
- Bruce Smith was a 3-4 end -- I tend to forget that because his sack totals are insanely high even for a 4-3 end. As my good buddy and defensive expert Jene Bramel said, Bruce Smith reigns supreme for 3-4 end pass rushing production. Bramel's article -- The Ultimate Guide to NFL Defense -- is as good as it is long. I've never read a better article on understanding NFL defenses.
This entry was posted on Wednesday, June 3rd, 2009 at 7:14 am and is filed under Approximate Value, Best/Worst Ever. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
It's interesting to note that the '66 Vikings show up as potentially one of the best defensive lines of all time -- and that's the year before they drafted Alan Page. Wow.
I was kind of surprised that the 1968 Cowboy line of Lilly, Andrie, Pugh, and Cole did not make the cut. They led the league against the run and were near the top in sacks. I understand the AV rule, still curious though (but my Dallas bias is showing). Also, no GB defensive line from the 60's despite the defense's overall dominance. Interesting.
In your example, you said in the paragraph that Mike Rucker had a peak AV of 10, but when you used the numbers, it looked like it was 11. Also in response to Tim, Green Bay's defense in 62 made it.
I see that now about GB 1962--thanks Nathan. Sorry guys.
Not surprised by Minnesota's Purple Gang taking the top spots. As mentioned before on PFR they were "dynastic" on defense in the late '60s and early '70s. The 1970 Viking D getting the top mark is also no surprise. That unit gave up just 10 touchdowns, scored four of their own, for a net of SIX TDs! The 1969 unit gave up 12 TDs, scored one, for a net of 11 TDs. And the 1971 unit gave up 11, scored one, for a net of 10 TDs. Imagine facing the 1970 Viking defense - even as awful as the Viking offense was that year and 1971: You get only six TDs spread out over 14 regular season games!!! Talk about suffocating.
Thanks Nathan. I've made that change.
Hey Tim,
When I get home I'll check to see where the '68 Cowboys were.
This brings up the whole other question of what kind of linemen are used in a 3-4 defense. The 2008 Ravens started Bannan, Ngata, and Price on the defensive line. Looking at the roster at baltimoreravens.com, Bannan and Price are listed as Defensive Tackles, and Ngata is listed as a Nose Tackle. Four DEs are listed (well, one DE and three rookie LB/DEs).
While looking at the career sack leaders and marveling at Bruce Smith's prowess, I noticed he isn't listed as a HoFer in that page. Same is true fro Rod Woodson and I would assume the entire 2009 class. Do they get the + after the induction only?
Also, I noticed that Art Monk is listed as tied for 121st on the career playoff games started list, while listed as 124th on his page. Same for career playoff games (193 and 194 respectively). This also happens for other players in those pages, and not only at that ranking. For example, for Bryan Barker it's 155 and 156.
Tim,
The '71 Cowboys (same starting DL as the '68 team) comes in at 11.1 -- they just miss the list. The peak AVs for the guys were 16.3, 12, 11.3 and 9.7 for Lilly, Andrie, Pugh and Cole, respectively.
Thanks Chase for the info. I'm surprised to see Lilly's Av at "only" 16.3 as compared to 18 for Merlin Olsen and 23.7 for Page. This is also below Steve McMichael's 16.7. So the AV thingee for this analysis has me questioning its validity for this particular case.
Here is some example data to show why I was surprised to see any of the D-Lines for Dallas from 1966-1974 not listed. In 1966 Dallas led the league against the run and recorded 60 sacks (with Willie Townes and not Larry Cole at one end spot). Dallas led the league against the run in 1968 and 1969 while posting over 50 sacks both seasons. This time with Larry Cole replacing an injured Willie Townes who is not out of the league. They also gave up only 2 and 3 Td's on the ground respectively for those two seasons. For the next 2 years, 1970-1971, their ranking slipped but they were still near the top against the run as well as getting over 40 sacks both those years. And, just to add, during this entire period, their playoff rushing defense statistics are truly impressive against some very good rushing teams.
Just me weighing in, but I would venture to say that the Cowboys line of 1966-67 (when Willie Townes was a starter) thru 1974 (at the end of Lilly's career) was comparable to the record of run defense and sacks for the Rams Fearsome Foursome combinations (with Jones and Olsen as the constants) and the Vikings (with Marshall, Eller and Page as constants).
Tim, I'm a bit surprised too. Not only Doomsday I ('66 to '74) but Doomsday II ('75 and beyond).
Some stats - average QB sacks per season (1968-1977):
1. Los Angeles Rams 44.6
2. Dallas Cowboys 43.7
3. Oakland Raiders 40.6
4. Baltimore Colts 38.5
5. San Francisco 49ers 38.2
6. Denver Broncos 37.3
7. Minnesota Vikings 37.2
8. Pittsburgh Steelers 36.1
9. Houston Oilers 35.0
10. Washington Redskins 34.3
Times thrown, percentage sack (1968-1977):
1. Los Angeles Rams 11.82%
2. Dallas Cowboys 11.14%
3. Oakland Raiders 10.67%
4. San Francisco 49ers 10.36%
5. Minnesota Vikings 10.34%
6. Baltimore Colts 10.11%
7. Houston Oilers 9.68%
8. Denver Broncos 9.38%
9. Pittsburgh Steelers 9.35%
10. Washington Redskins 9.01%
Here are some more for the same 1968-1977 era:
Average points allowed per game:
1. Minnesota Vikings 13.25
2. Los Angeles Rams 14.44
3. Dallas Cowboys 15.74
4. Miami Dolphins 16.49
5. Oakland Raiders 17.28
6. Baltimore Colts 17.46
7. Detroit Lions 17.56
8. Washington Redskins 17.68
9. Pittsburgh Steelers 17.73
10. Green Bay Packers 18.09
Average yards allowed per game:
1. Minnesota Vikings 248.47
2. Los Angeles Rams 253.71
3. Dallas Cowboys 255.31
4. Detroit Lions 271.70
5. Pittsburgh Steelers 273.39
6. Green Bay Packers 279.21
7. San Francisco 49ers 280.07
8. Oakland Raiders 281.16
9. Miami Dolphins 285.08
10. Baltimore Colts 285.69
Those Cowboys teams had great defenses, for sure. Doug may weigh in later on why the AV scores of the DL look low, but this would be my guess:
Chuck Howley, LB - 6 Pro Bowls, 5 1st team All Pros
Lee Roy Jordan, LB - 5 Pro Bowls
Mel Renfro, DB - 10 Pro Bowls
Cornell Green, DB - 5 Pro Bowls
Those Ds were very good, but it's far from that the DL was the strength of those teams.
I agree, Chase. Dallas was always known for great balance in those days - not just on offense and defense but within each segment (DL, LB, DB, OL, WR, RB, QB). They were a team of All-Stars and that is one reason why they posted 20 straight winning seasons.
I apologize for my ignorance of football history, but I noticed the oldest 3-4 team on the list was from 1975. Was the 3-4 just not played in the pros before that or was it just not as successful due to the run-heavy offenses back then?
From the 91 superbowl-era teams listed, there are only 3 are superbowl winners (Bucs 2002, Steelers 1978, Broncos 1997). I don't know if that means anything or not -- I just expected it to be higher. Any random superbowl-era team/year combo should have something like a 1/30 chance of winning the superbowl, so it seems to me this is saying having a super-awesome line doesn't really help you all that much. I know that's not true, so it seems odd.
The 3-4 began in the NFL with Chuck Fairbanks when he was with the New England Patriots, circa 1973-78. Fairbanks learned it from Bud Wilkinson at the U of Oklahoma. Meanwhile Tom Landry had already invented the 4-3 in the pros as a way to stop RB Jim Brown. After New England began the 3-4 other teams followed. Oakland had it in 1976 (a Super Bowl year) mainly due to multiple season-ending injuries on their DL. Then Denver followed with the 3-4 in their Super Bowl year of 1977. A year later many more teams adopted the 3-4 (it even made the cover of SI with Denver's Rubin Carter gracing the front page). But still, Landry's 4-3 was considered the norm. After the 1990s the 3-4 kind of fizzled out. Now it seems to be back on the rise.
Going back to Patrick's earlier posts with the defense comparisons--excellent. And while Chase is right that Dallas had excellent players at other positions, based on Pro Bowls and such, are the players for Minnesota (e.g. Roy Winston, Wally Hilgenburg, and later Siemon) not comparable? I think Pro Bowl recognition, while an indicator, should be tempered some in terms of weighting. What's the substitute? Got me. But as we know, reputation and competition from other teams having good players at those positions can keep a good player out of th Pro Bowl and thus lower his AV. I think the reason the early Doomsday defenses are lower rated is that Bob Lilly's AV is too low. The guy was sometimes triple teamed! And his reputation among players and coaches at the time was that he was comparable if not better than Page, Olsen, Greene, of that era. If his AV was higher, then I think the Dallas DL's of that period creep in. But again, I confess my Dallas bias! Finally, I have to mention that if one examines how these guys did in the playoffs (they stuffed the Packers running in the two NFL championship games and sacked Starr like 7 times in the second one) then you'd see why Im somewhat fervent.
For the 1978 Steelers, Banaszak and White split time at right end, while Steve Furness and Gary Dunn alternated at right tackle.
I've followed the NFL since 1967 and I didn't need this article to tell me what the best defensive line in history was. In 1969, 70 and 71 the Vikings gave up the 2nd, 7th, and 5th fewest points in the Super Bowl era. And after a hiccup rank 12th I believe for the 73 season. The greatest run in history and it was largely due to their front four. As for the comment about Lilly, he was great, no doubt, but not quite as good as Page. As a matter of fact, Page had what I believe to be the best series of downs ever turned in by a defensive player. I can't remember the year, but they were playing the Lions. On first down Page sacks the QB for a loss. On second, he leaps over the blocker and drops the runner for another loss. Third and long. While being held, for which a flag was thrown, he drags the blocker anyways and gets another sack. Penalty declined, the Lions punt, and Page blocks it.
By the way, Patrick says the 3-4 began in the NFL in 1973 with the Patriots but if memory serves me correctly the Chiefs played it in the first days of the merger.