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ShareThisHOF 2010: Dermontti Dawson
Previous HOF 2010 Bios: John Randle; Roger Craig; Russ Grimm; Steve Tasker; Aeneas Williams; Art Modell; Terrell Davis.
Teams almost never replace one Hall of Famer with another. The 49ers replacing Joe Montana with Steve Young, the Bears filling Bill George's absence with Dick Butkus and the Browns handing the ball off from Jim Brown to Leroy Kelly are exceptions to the rule. Things aren't supposed to be that easy for a team. But in Pittsburgh, fans didn't have to worry about their center for a quarter-century. From 1976 to 1988, Hall of Famer Mike Webster manned the middle for the Steelers offense. Pittsburgh drafted Dermontti Dawson in the second round of the 1988 draft, and he played next to Webster for one season. After Webster left for Kansas City, Dawson moved to the middle, and would start for the Steelers from 1989 to 2000. Those in Pittsburgh still debate who was the better center. But things didn't end there for Pittsburgh, as Jeff Hartings would replace Dawson similarly to the way Jeff Garcia followed Young. From '01 to '06, Hartings continued the Steelers tradition of excellence at the position: he was named to two Pro Bowls and two Associated Press All-Pro teams. But today, we're going to focus on Dawson, and his fantastic accomplishments during his twelve seasons in Pittsburgh.
Dawson is one of only two offensive line candidates this year. Earlier this month I profiled Russ Grimm, but ultimately decided his career lacked both the quantity and sustained quality to make the Hall. Dawson suffers from no such problems. He made seven Pro Bowls and was a six-time Associated Press first-team All-Pro. Perhaps even more impressive, he was a unanimous first-team All-Pro for five straight seasons, as the AP, the Sporting News and the Pro Football Writers all decided that Dawson was the best center in the league.
Dawson's career AV grade is 83, which probably underrates how good he was. Dawson rarely played on good offenses, which tends to cap how much AV a player can earn. Twenty-nine of the 39 first-team All-Pro centers named by the Associated Press since the merger played on teams that finished in the top in the league in scoring. Dawson was the center named in four of those other ten occasions, and he played on by far the worst scoring team ('98 Steelers) of any AP first-team All-Pro center. While one could argue that the Steelers lack of offensive success is evidence that Dawson was overrated and was earning his accolades based on reputation, I think the more likely argument is that Dawson's AV score is underrated because he was snapping to Kordell Stewart and Mike Tomczak.
Since the merger, the only other player to make six consecutive first-team Associated Press All-Pro teams who has been passed over for induction is John Randle. And Randle seems likely to make the HOF, perhaps as soon as 2010. So why hasn't Dawson been selected? Some feel the Hall has more than enough Steelers, and the voters are more than content to vote down another one. Others think the Hall just doesn't care about interior linemen, and centers in particular. He's been a semifinalist in all five years since becoming eligible; last year was the first time Dawson made the cut and was named a finalist, so things may be trending his way. If Dawson makes the Hall, how would he compare to the other centers currently in the Hall?
Only six pure centers of the modern era are in the Hall of Fame, compared to 11 guards and 17 tackles. I've listed the HOF centers from the modern era, Dawson, and the four other centers with career AVs of over 80. Note that for Gatski, his AV score does not include his first four seasons. Gatski was also a two-way performer for the Browns. The "SS" column stands for seasons starting.
| Player | Pro Bowls | 1AP | 2AP | HOF? | SS | AV |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Jim Ringo | 10 | 6 | 3 | yes | 14 | 113 |
| Mike Webster | 9 | 5 | 1 | yes | 14 | 103 |
| Mick Tingelhoff | 6 | 5 | 1 | no | 17 | 102 |
| Jim Otto | 12 | 10 | 2 | yes | 15 | 100 |
| Kevin Mawae | 7 | 3 | 4 | no | 14 | 87 |
| Tom Nalen | 5 | 2 | 1 | no | 11 | 84 |
| Dermontti Dawson | 7 | 6 | 0 | no | 11 | 83 |
| Jim Langer | 6 | 4 | 2 | yes | 8 | 82 |
| Len Hauss | 5 | 0 | 2 | no | 14 | 81 |
| Frank Gatski | 1 | 3 | 1 | yes | 10 | 72 |
| Dwight Stephenson | 5 | 4 | 1 | yes | 6 | 71 |
In Grimm's case, I noted that several guards -- Larry Allen, Will Shields, Alan Faneca, Steve Hutchinson -- are coming up for induction soon, and appear to have stronger HOF profiles than Grimm. The only centers with strong HOF profiles that have entered the league since Dawson are Kevin Mawae (7 Pro Bowls, 3 first-team All-Pros, 236 starts and counting), Tom Nalen (5 Pro Bowls, 2 first-team All-Pros, 188 starts, two Super Bowl rings), Olin Kreutz (6 Pro Bowls, 1 first-team All-Pro, 165 starts and counting), and Jeff Saturday (3 Pro Bowls, 2 first-team All-Pros, 154 starts, 1 Super Bowl ring, and counting for all categories). Saturday may get add to his personal accolades and win a Super Bowl this year; Mawae may improve his profile, too. But it looks unlikely that any center of the last 20 years will be remembered as a cut above Dawson. While I may support the candidacy of the other centers, none of them are clearly more deserving than Dawson.
If you want to learn more about Dawson's career, or want to hear some of his ex-Steelers rave about him, Austin Murphy wrote a terrific article on Dawson for Sports Illustrated during the 1998 season. It's well worth the read. It's been a long time since a Hall of Fame center was playing in the NFL. Steelers great Mike Webster is the most recently active center currently in Canton. It would be appropriate if Dawson took that position from him.
Chances he'll make the HOF in 2010? Average.
Chances he'll ever make the HOF? Good.
This entry was posted on Wednesday, December 23rd, 2009 at 8:08 am and is filed under HOF, Player articles. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
I know I said this for the TD article, but I'll say it again, I really look forward to each and every one of these HoF articles.
Chase,
Don't forget about Ray Mansfield. "The Ranger" played 13 years for the Steelers, holds the team record for consecutive games played (182) and started Super Bowls IX and X.
True, he wasn't quite at Webster's, Dawson's, or maybe even Hartings' level, but he was solid.
Oh, and no question Dirt should make it into the HOF.
And Mick Tinglehoff should've been in a while ago. So many people campaign for Jim Marshall, but I think Tinglehoff clearly has the better case of the two.
Scott, agreed very strongly with you re the HoF merits of Mick Tingelhoff vs. Jim Marshall. "AP first team all pro/pro bowl" numbers for Tingelhoff are 5/6 (played 17 years), for Marshall 0/2 (played 20 years), which is not even close. Marshall does have a long consecutive game streak, but Tingelhoff has a sizable one of his own -- currently, Marshall and Tingelhoff are #2 and #6 on the all time list, and at one point they were #1 and #2.
And for those who think Marshall is football's equivalent of Cal Ripken, I say no way. Ripken was a HoF-er with or without the streak. Marshall is pretty much the NFL's equal to MLB's Everett Scott -- both had long consecutive streaks of what appears to be Hall of the Very Good level of play. Not too shabby, but not at elite level, either.
It might be a few more years, but I think Dawson gets in soon.
All I know is that when he played, Dawson was someone who I always assumed would be in the HOF. In other words, he passes my eyeball test, for what that's worth.
Dawson deserves to be enshrined, no question, he was the best at his position in the 90's, and I believe it will be this year, as each year usually at least one offensive lineman gets inducted and Dermontti had a better resume than Grimm.
By the way, looking at the list of the HOF/AV centers, Jeff Van Note had a better career AV than Gatski and Stephenson, and Van Note, Ray Donaldson, Doug Smith and Mark Stepnoski were elected to at least 5 Pro Bowls each (Donaldson and Smith went to six each, but only a 2nd team All-Pro for Donaldson in 1987).
Ooops, I had forgot Jay Hilgenberg, he went to seven Pro Bowls, with two 1st team All-Pro and two 2nd team All-Pro selections. If his career hadn't overlapped Webster and Stephenson, maybe he had a chance to get enshrined.
Ditto on Tingelhoff deserving a shrine. Pathetic the bias against the '69 Vikings for blowing that Super Bowl against KC. That's what's keeping Mick out of Canton. In spite of all his credentials and longevity the Super Bowl losses are what's keeping him out. Honestly, if the Vikes had not made any of those Super Bowls they might have been treated much more kindly by the Hall voters.
For a lineman to make the Hall, he should dominate his position during his era, and the All-Pro team is the best way to determine that. Dawson's six first-team selections not only tops Tingelhoff's 5, but Tingelhoff had the advantage of not having Jim Otto of the AFL as competition at the time. Dawson has to be the next OLman voted into the Hall. Bill Belichick raved about his career last year. The quote should be easy to find.
Mose, you appear to be making some major assumptions here:
--that Mick Tingelhoff is actually eligible for election. In fact, he's in the Seniors pool, and until the Seniors Committee nominates him as a finalist, he hasn't a chance of getting elected. Meanwhile, Dawson is currently eligible as a regular candidate and will be for some time to come, and given his track record thus far, there's no reason not to think he'll be a finalist every year until he's voted in. Not the same thing. Given the circumstances, the chances Dawson gets voted in before Tingelhoff are pretty good.
--that Dawson's 6 1st team all pro selections automatically show greater HoF worth than Tingelhoff's 5. You've got problems with this, notably that the gap between 5 and 6 selections is negligible, and that both played in very different eras. How do you period adjust for this?
--that Tingelhoff was not as good as Jim Otto during the six year stretch (1964-1969) both were named as the NFL's and AFL's best centers simultaneously. Is that true? And if so -- and most importantly -- why?
I think they both belong in, and I frankly don't care which goes in first.
what about mick tinglehoff? a career av of 149 second all-time? i do agree with dawson since i actually saw him play but tinglehoff looks like a rock for all those viking teams of the 60s-70s
He WAS a rock (Tingelhoff). I saw him play for most of his career. His forte was hiking the ball and pancaking the defensive lineman to the left or right of him before the play could be recognized. (Very few nose tackles lined up over him those days).
You could snap your fingers twice and find the enemy defensive lineman on the ground and out of the play, courtesy of the high-top-shoed Tingelhoff. From 1964 through 1970 he was named either All-Pro, made the Pro Bowl or was all-NFC. Seven straght years. Then he remained the starter until 1978. His backup, a man named Godfrey Zaunbrecher, was noted for saying: "I play behind Mick Tingelhoff and Mick Tingelhoff injured."
Matt Birk not in the mix with Kruetz, Mawae, Nalen, and Saturday? I believe he has made more probowls than a few of those mentioned.
Matt Birk is certainly in that era's center mix, but the standout currently is Kevin Mawae when using "1st team all pro/pro bowl" numbers as basis:
Kevin Mawae (3/7)
Matt Birk (0/6)
Jeff Saturday (2/3)
Olin Kreutz (1/6)
Tom Nalen (2/5)
Demonti Dawson is a hall of famer right along with John Randle and Cortez Kennedy! These three lineman were premiere players in the decade of the 90's. Dawson was a multi-pro-bowler with the talent to match and he along with defensive back Rod Woodson was the cornerstone of the Steelers of the late 80's and early to mid 90's. I think he will get in this year as a certain lock!
Mansfield, Webster, Dawson, Hartings. The Steelers have really lucked out when it came to centers. Having seen Webster and Dawson in their primes, I'm giving the edge to Dawson because of his superior athleticism. Webby was spectacular, but Dawson was freakishly good. This man would snap the ball and pull out and lead runs. To say the Steelers offense during Dawson's era was not a "success" is very misleading. Under Bill Cowher, the Steelers played a ball control offense with a stifling defense. No Cowher coached team would ever be a top scoring offense. But they were constantly at or near the top in Time of Possession, and they won a ton of games with their philsophy. Dirt was spectacular and better get in soon if the Hall of Fame is to have any credibility in my eyes. As far as Tinglehoff, I would absolutely have put him in before Yary, who in my opinion was vastly overrated. Just look at how he was destroyed in Super Bowl IX. Yet he's in the Hall and Tinglehoff isn't.?!
Jim, Mick Tingelhoff got manhandled mercilessly by Curley Culp in Super Bowl IV, so he too had some bad games. In fact, that seemed to happen a good bit to the Vikings in their four Super Bowl appearances -- not too many Minnesota players did well here, it seems.
In fact, both Tinglehoff and Ron Yary have similar postseason honor stats. Yary was named to the AP all pro 1st team 6 times while Tinglehoff received this honor 5 times. Tinglehoff went to 6 pro bowls and Yary to 7. Plus Yary was named to the '70s all-decade team.
I think both Tingelhoff and Yary are very deserving of HoF membership, and it's a shame the former hasn't gotten a chance yet. But I don't see why this is a reflection on Yary.
Re: #12. I should have added that Mick Tingelhoff was particularly adept at taking out the middle linebacker, which primarily was his role as most centers had that responsibility. There were certain games where this was a very difficult task but paramount to success and the Viking coaching staff asked other linemen to help out prior to the start of the game - especially in facing men like Bill Bergey and Lee Roy Jordan. But Mick was able to rack them up and create big holes in two particular games that enabled Chuck Foreman to run free and wild. The 1973 NFC title game (both Foreman and Oscar Reed had 75+ yards) and the 1976 game in Philly where Foreman got 200 yards rushing, then a Viking record.
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True, in Super Bowl IV Curley Culp had a big day. So did Buck Buchanan. Both of these linemen were over center at times. But the Vikings as a team did not have their blocking straight that day, according to Joe Kapp, for whatever reason that is as perplexing today as it was 40 years ago. There were no adjustments made at halftime either, although Kapp had a few choice words with his line. One bad game came at the worst time. But Tingelhoff persevered nicely.