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Top Ten Tight Ends of All-Time
So I finally sit down to watch the "Top Ten Tight Ends of All-Time" on the NFL Network, which has been airing over the last month. Full disclosure: I am from Kansas City and have watched Gonzalez his whole career. He is one of my all-time favorite players. He's a great team player and team leader, he practices hard, he sacrifices for the team, he blocks well in the running game, can run and make plays in the open field, and catches touchdown passes and makes tough catches in traffic. I settle into a comfortable spot on the couch, the kids are napping, and I have a few moments to bask in the glory that will be Tony Gonzalez appearing somewhere at the top of this list. It's like the NFL Draft, my team may not be drafting for a while, and I'm comfortable knowing this, but I am going to enjoy the lead up.
The list leads off with Antonio Gates is Number 10. Okay, he's been pretty dominant recently, but we still do not know where his career will end up. Probably a little low, but debateable.
Number 9 is Mark Bavaro. Interesting. By career numbers probably shouldn't be on this list, but again, debateable.
Number 8 is . . . Tony Gonzalez? What? My day is ruined. Am I crazy for having thought Gonzalez would be considered one of the best of all-time? He holds the tight end records for career receptions and touchdowns, and will pass Shannon Sharpe for most yards early next year. It's not like he is sticking around past his prime to just pad stats either. He was second team all-NFL in 2007, and played in a pro bowl for the ninth straight season (another tight end record). After this shock to the system, I can't even listen to what they are saying on the show, I'm so amazed.
So I get up and go to the laptop, pull up this website called pro-football-reference.com, and start comparing some numbers. And I am getting even madder. Bavaro and Gonzalez next to each other? To me, this is like saying Terrell Davis should be next to Walter Payton and Jim Brown on the all-time running back list.
Next up at #7 is Dave Casper. My blood pressure improves just a little bit. Casper had a nice career and was the dominant tight end of the late 1970's. Well-deserved on this list, just not in front of Gonzalez. The brief improvement in mood is immediately reversed by the revelation of Jackie Smith at #6. Talk about revisionist history. Why not just put Jay Novacek in front of Gonzalez instead? You know how many times Smith was acknowledged as the best tight end in the league by all-pro voting? The same number as me. Gonzalez--five times. You would have to engage in some serious "I walked to school uphill both ways, and every player was so much better back in my day" thinking to justify this ranking of Smith ahead of Gonzalez. Jackie Smith was a good tight end and had a nice long career, but he certainly was no Tony Gonzalez.
The remaining top five were (in order) Ozzie Newsome, Shannon Sharpe, Mike Ditka, Kellen Winslow, and John Mackey. I could continue to complain and rant, but let's get to some objective analysis first. Probably the best place to start, similar to what I talked about in comparing Jackie Smith to Gonzalez, is how the tight end was perceived at the time he was playing. Tight end is a unique position, in the sense that we have some statistics and can see how many receptions and touchdowns the tight end scored. But it also entails other things that aren't measured by statistics directly, such as how the tight end affected the game plan, and how good or bad of a blocker he was for the running game--all things that are part of the job description. Also, I wasn't around to see Ditka, Mackey, Smith, or Casper, and I have some vague memories of Winslow in the 1981 playoff game against the Dolphins.
So I'm not going to rely on my own opinions. And I'm surely not going to rely on the opinions of someone thirty years after the fact, particularly about a former teammate or contemporary that they are biased towards, as absence may tend to make the heart grow fonder. No, I'm going to rely on what writers and other people said about each tight end at the time they were playing, as represented by all-pro voting. This is especially important because it allows us to see how a tight end was perceived, beyond his raw numbers, when he was playing.
I went through the all-pro selections since 1960 at the tight end position in detail. The number of awards has varied greatly over the years, with alot of different organizations giving awards thirty years ago compared to today. I went through each season and marked down the top tight ends each season, noted whether the leader was unanimous or not, and put it together.
A couple of comments on my methods. First, though this website officially lists Ditka with three all-pro seasons, I credited him with four because there was no first team all-pro tight end his rookie year, and so even though he was a second team all-pro in 1961, it was second team to presumably split ends or flankers, and he was the clear top tight end. In fact, before Ditka, there was no all-pro selection for the tight end position. He changed the way the awards were done, and he was recognized as the clear top tight end in the league for four straight seasons.
Second, if you check the fine print, this site lists all-pro seasons as those designated by the AP all-pro selections. However, numerous other organizations made first and second team selections, both all-pro and all-conference. Most years, the selections at tight end were unanimous, but if they were not, I noted the plurality and how many selected each player to first team all-pro. As a result, my numbers may not match up with the all-pros listed on a player's page. Also, not all awards gave all-pro selections, some instead just designating all-conference selections.
The below chart presents four different columns. The first is the number of unanimous first team all-pro selections a player had. The second column represents other seasons in which the player received at least one selection as a first team all-pro, but was not the unanimous choice. The third column represents all additional seasons where a player was not selected for any first team all-pro award, but received at least one award as a second team all-pro (I did not separate this one out into unanimous and non-unanimous second team all-pros). Finally, the fourth column represents all other seasons when a player received an award, such as first team all-conference (but not on any all-pro teams) or second team all-conference. For example, in 1978, Casper was the unanimous first team all-pro, and Russ Francis was the unanimous second team all-pro and all-AFC selection. Billy Joe Dupree and Henry Childs received the all-NFC awards, but neither got any all-pro consideration, and these are the types of seasons that would go into this fourth column.
Here is the NFL Network's top ten in reverse order:
unan. 1st 1st tm 2nd tm other ======================================================================= Antonio Gates 3 0 0 1 Mark Bavaro 1 1 0 0 Tony Gonzalez 4 1 3 0 Dave Casper 3 1 0 0 Jackie Smith 0 0 1 4 Ozzie Newsome 1 1 2 3 Shannon Sharpe 4 0 1 1 Mike Ditka 4 0 2 0 Kellen Winslow 3 0 0 1 John Mackey 2 1 0 0 =======================================================================
Gonzalez, Sharpe and Ditka are the only tight ends who were the clear top player in four different seasons. Gonzalez also had a fifth season where he split first team all-pro votes with Shockey (2002). Gonzalez so far has eight total seasons where he was either first or second team all-pro at tight end, ahead of Ditka's six seasons, and Sharpe's five. Gonzalez laps the rest of the field. Yeah, eighth best tight end sounds about right.
For further comparison, here is the same chart format, with a list of all other tight ends who played in the NFL since 1960, (and were not included in the NFL Network's list) who were selected to at least one all-pro first team in their career, listed in descending order of unanimous first team finishes:
unan. 1st 1st tm 2nd tm other ======================================================================= Todd Christensen 2 1 2 0 Charlie Sanders 2 0 1 3 Ben Coates 2 0 1 1 Riley Odoms 1 2 0 2 Keith Jackson 1 2 0 2 Pete Retzlaff 1 0 1 1 Ted Kwalick 1 0 0 2 Jason Witten 1 0 0 1 Marv Cook 1 0 0 0 Charle Young 0 3 0 0 Jay Novacek 0 1 1 3 Mickey Shuler 0 1 1 1 Jerry Smith 0 1 1 0 Raymond Chester 0 1 0 0 Jeremy Shockey 0 1 0 0 =======================================================================
I've also left off the AFL-only guys from 1960-1969. Fred Arbanas was the class of the AFL, finishing as the unanimous top choice twice (1964 and 1966), splitting votes for first team twice (with Dave Kocourek in 1963 and Billy Cannon in 1967), and finishing second team all-AFL twice (behind Kocourek in 1962 and Willie Frazier in 1965). Other notables besides the aforementioned Kocourek, Cannon and Frazier: Jim Whalen and Alvin Reed split the awards in 1968, and Bob Trumpy took top honors in 1969 (and followed it with a second team all-pro finish behind Charlie Sanders in 1970 after the merger).
With only eight teams for most of the seasons, coupled with the fact that the NFL guys from the same period are subjectively considered better, and the fact that Arbanas never was the unanimous selection consecutively and only twice, and I don't think I can justify putting him in the top ten, though he certainly merits mention in the next tier.
We probably want to focus on the first five guys in that second list, because they are the only other ones who either (1) were selected as a first team all-pro unanimously in two different seasons, or (2) were selected as a first team-all pro in three different seasons, but not unanimously in more than one.
This next chart is akin to Bill James' black ink test. It lists top ten finishes in receptions, receiving yards, and receiving touchdowns. Now, I place greater weight on the first chart than this one. If a tight end is leading in receiving categories but not winning awards, that tells you something about how he is perceived by his peers at the time as an all-around tight end. Also, even though this method is better than looking at raw numbers, it still needs some era adjustment. It is a lot harder to finish top ten in a category in 2007 than in 1967, because you are competing against not only other tight ends, but also wide receivers and receiving backs in these categories. Having 32 teams increases the competition for a top ten finish exponentially compared to having 14 or 16 teams to compete against. On the other hand, the tight end usage has changed. Tight ends were generally not the huge receiving threats that they are today back in the 1960's. After the 1978 passing rule changes, the tight ends as a group seemed to have benefitted in terms of receptions, while today's tight ends seem to be more involved in red zone scoring than at any other time. The chart presents two columns for each category. The first lists the number of top ten seasons the player had in each category. The second weights those finishes, so that leading the league in receptions garners 10 points, while a tenth place finish gets only 1. Thus, the higher numbers in the second category reflect more statistical dominance in the receiving categories relative to the rest of the league.
Top 10 Rank Top 10 Rank Top 10 Rank Recept Recept Rec Yds Rec Yds Rec Td Rec Td ======================================================================= Todd Christensen 5 37 2 12 3 10 Charlie Sanders 0 0 0 0 0 0 Ben Coates 1 7 1 1 3 8 Riley Odoms 0 0 0 0 2 8 Keith Jackson 1 5 0 0 1 6 Antonio Gates 1 5 0 0 3 18 Mark Bavaro 0 0 0 0 1 8 Tony Gonzalez 3 15 1 4 3 17 Dave Casper 3 11 1 1 5 27 Jackie Smith 2 8 3 10 1 6 Ozzie Newsome 3 25 1 4 1 6 Shannon Sharpe 2 6 1 1 3 17 Mike Ditka 4 26 3 12 2 11 Kellen Winslow 4 37 3 20 4 26 John Mackey 2 4 1 2 2 9 =======================================================================
With that as background, let's move to my Top Ten. First, we need to talk about who misses the cut, and why, because I have fifteen names here. First, I am going to kick off two guys from the NFL Network list.
Jackie Smith is gone because I want dominance on my list, and he is the only tight end on the list who never received any first team all-pro selections, to go with only one second team selection. He put up good receiving numbers, particularly in the yards category. If we were assessing tight ends just as receivers, he makes the list. And he certainly had a longer career than his contemporaries. But it is clear from reviewing the all-pro list that he was not viewed as favorably as the raw numbers might support, nor considered as much of an all-around tight end as others of his era who garnered greater award recognition.
Bavaro is gone because he just did not do it long enough. My list is not about what might have been, and you need more than two seasons of top level play to make it, considering the alternatives available.
Riley Odoms and Keith Jackson miss the cut for similar reasons. Both were first team selections in three different seasons, but each was the unanimous selection only once. Odoms is very under-rated, but he and Charle Young split votes in the mid-1970's, before Casper emerged. Keith Jackson was the best tight end in what was probably the valley period for elite tight ends, after the retirement of guys like Christensen, Winslow, and Newsome, and the decline of Bavaro, but before the emergence of Sharpe and Coates. If he was a unanimous selection during this era, he would make my list. But he split votes with Mickey Shuler in 1988 and Rodney Holman in 1989. Good players each, but if you want to be considered one of the best of all-time, you cannot split votes with those players in your prime. Jackson's run was also ended by Marv Cook in 1991, the biggest one-hit wonder at the tight end position. For those reasons, I cannot justify Jackson despite his three all-pro seasons.
Just missing the cut is Ben Coates, and quite frankly, it's too close to call. He had two top seasons where he finished ahead of an elite tight end in Shannon Sharpe, and also had another second team finish. I think Coates merits consideration for an all-time list, and if he had been productive for just a little longer, would be there.
Which brings me to the Top Ten.
10. Charlie Sanders. To show I'm not biased against era (on the contrary, I think its the NFL Network's list that is clearly era biased), if I am kicking Jackie Smith, I am going to replace him with a contemporary who was considered better than Smith by the voters of the time. I'll trust their evaluation. Sanders was the best tight end in 1970 and 1971, after a second place finish in 1969. He also played in seven pro bowls. He never finished in the top ten in any receiving category, which is why he comes in at number 10. But he was clearly considered the top tight end of the early merger period, and was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2007.
9. Ozzie Newsome. How could I place the Wizard so low? Well, several of the people interviewed for the NFL Network piece even noted that he was a terrible blocker. I'm sure then, that this had something to do with Newsome only making three pro bowls and one unanimous first team all-pro in his career. To be fair, he was in the AFC, and most of the top tight ends were in the AFC during his career, so if he was in the NFC, he would have probably made more pro bowls. He also played at the same time as Kellen Winslow. But its not like he was the clear 2nd choice throughout his career. At various points during his prime, he split votes for awards with Raymond Chester, Junior Miller, and Dan Ross. It was Todd Christensen, not Newsome, that emerged as the best tight end when Winslow got hurt and declined.
8. Todd Christensen. How did he not make the NFL Network List? Is he that unpopular? The black ink test favors Christensen to be even higher, and certainly ahead of his contemporary Newsome. It does appear that the tight ends of his era were more dominant statistically as a whole, particularly in the reception category, so this may require us to reign in his receiving numbers. He also started his career later than most of the elite tight ends. But he was considered one of the two best tight ends in the game for every season between 1983-1987, and that gets him on my list.
7. Antonio Gates. I could make a pretty good argument that he could be higher, but that depends on what he does the rest of his career. Plenty of guys have been the best tight end for a three year stretch. He's not considered the most willing blocker despite his size, but he could move up this list with another elite season, joining Ditka, Gonzalez and Sharpe with four.
6. John Mackey. I know I am risking being accused of all sorts of things with this placement, considering the NFL Network had him at #1. I saw the highlights, and he certainly was a physical specimen. I'll just say that if I was going by only numbers (relative rankings, all-pro seasons) he wouldn't even be this high, so I am trying to be somewhat deferential to the opinions expressed in the piece--to a point. There are just too many questions that bother me about Mackey when I am considering whether the ranking at #1 is merited or a case of revisionist history. If he is the best of all-time, why did he only appear on awards list in three seasons? More to the point, why did he not sweep the awards in the middle of his prime? In 1967, the UPI gave their first team all-pro honor to Jerry Smith, not Mackey. Now, maybe the voters for the UPI had some axe to grind, but I just have to go by what I see. Also, Mackey and Ditka both retired in 1972. The Hall of Fame was unfairly slow to recognize the game's top tight ends from the early years, but if Mackey is the best ever, why was it that Ditka went into the Hall in 1988, and Mackey not until in 1992?
I'd also like to dispel the notion that Ditka and Mackey cost each other awards. It's true that they played at the same time for a great part of their careers, and both retired after the 1972 season. But the notion they cost each other numerous awards, and thus the first chart I posted undervalues each, is not true. Ditka was the acknowledged best tight end in the game his first four seasons (1961-1964). In 1965, Ditka fell off greatly stat-wise, still finishing 2nd team all-pro, but the unanimous first teamer was not Mackey. It was a 34-year old Pete Retzlaff, an interesting player who seems a cross between a Frank Wychek and a Larry Centers, starting his career as a receiving back, moving to end, then ending his career as a tight end once it became an acknowledged position. Mackey's first all-pro season was the next year, in 1966. Ditka did finish as a 2nd teamer that year, along with a young Jackie Smith, but it was Ditka's final season garnering any awards. The following year, 1967, Mackey was the choice (with the UPI going with Jerry Smith), but Ditka was done as far as league honors went. Mackey was the unanimous choice in 1968, finishing ahead of Jackie Smith in Smith's only unanimous 2nd team all-pro season. That was Mackey's last season getting any awards. Jerry Smith was the unanimous selection in 1969, followed by the first two post merger seasons where Charlie Sanders took top honors unanimously. Mackey's career as the best tight end in the league was framed by Pete Retzlaff and Jerry Smith, not Ditka.
5. Dave Casper. Casper was a touchdown machine and the most dominant tight end of the late 1970's. He is the fourth player to receive first team all-pro votes in four different seasons. Three were unanimous (1976-1978), and in 1979, he split votes with Newsome and Chester.
I think there is a divide between here and the top four tight ends of all-time.
4. Shannon Sharpe. You could make an argument for Sharpe to be higher. But this is my rant. Sharpe and Gonzalez' careers overlapped, so we do not really need an era adjustment to the raw numbers. Gonzalez is still going strong, and has passed or will soon pass Sharpe in every career tight end receiving record. If you want to put Sharpe ahead of Gonzalez based on three Super Bowl rings, well, I'm sorry, I cannot accept that. If your going to bump Gonzalez down because he played with Grbac instead of Elway, or with a team with no defense when the offense was at its peak, I'll just agree to disagree. Sharpe is one of the top tight ends, but in a straight up comparison, Gonzalez is ahead of Sharpe. If I were to find one reason, it's that he lost out to Ben Coates twice in the middle of his career. But his numbers and longevity merit being near the top.
3. Kellen Winslow. If we want to measure absolute dominance in the passing game during a player's peak, Winslow is number one. His prime was much shorter than the other guys at the top. His seasons from 1980-1982 were among the best ever. This is a matter of preference, and where you place Winslow depends on your view of peak versus longevity.
2. Tony Gonzalez. Surprised? I think I've set forth the case for Gonzalez appearing at the top of the list, and I'll lay out some rationale for the final player below (one of which is fear for my life should I ever meet him). I'll just add this in Gonzalez' favor. As we have seen, Ditka did not actually cost Mackey any awards. The same is not true for Gonzalez and Gates. Not only does he have the most first team all-pro seasons of any tight end with five (1999-2003), but he had the best season of all time for a tight end who was not selected first team all-pro. All Gonzalez did in 2004 was lead the league in receptions with 102, have 1258 yards receiving, and score 7 td's. But Gates was even better. How many other seasons, even era adjusting the numbers, would a tight end season like that not have resulted in a unanimous first team all-pro selection? Are there any? Maybe one or two of Winslow's? So not only does Gonzalez have the most first team all-pro seasons, he has the best season among the rest. If Gates had not emerged, Gonzalez would have absolutely shattered the first team all-pro records at the position.
1. Iron Mike Ditka. I am more impressed with Ditka's playing career after re-examining the numbers. As far as elite seasons and longevity, he comes in only behind Gonzalez. And I can accept that the nature of the game at the tight end position, compared to today where passing is more prevalent and tight ends get more involved in receiving, could shorten the effective length of tight end careers when Ditka played. That makes his dominance even more impressive. If you put Ditka and Mackey side by side in a comparison, it is no contest. Ditka was a dominant receiver for the first four years of his career, and known as a nasty blocker throughout his career. He basically revolutionized the position and turned the tight end into an offensive weapon. For that, he gets my top spot.
What say the rest of you?
This entry was posted on Tuesday, July 1st, 2008 at 3:54 am and is filed under History, Rant. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

This shouldn't be a rant because it was awesomely good posting. Good job, JKL. I'm convinced.
I am a Giants fan, but I agree with taking Bavaro out of the top 10. He was awesome, but only for a short time. I loved him as a player, but as far as rankings go, I'd only put him a little ahead of Shockey. I have no problem with Gonzalez at number two, if, as you claim he is a good blocker. I haven't paid enough attention to have an opinion.
Also, thank you for not using the euphemisms of "blocking" and "receiving" TE's. Whether he's good at it or not, a starting tight end is expected to block on about 45% of the offensive plays. If he is considered a "receiving" TE, that just means he is a lousy blocker. If he is a "blocking" TE, that just means he can't catch a football. Yes there are exceptions due to offensive schemes, but I would never give a TE an pass by labelling him with one of those terms. Thank you for not doing that either.
I think there's a few things to factor into John Mackey's record. BTW I grew up as a Colts fan and am a Chiefs fan now, so I do have a couple of dogs in this fight.
First, Mackey probably lost some HoF votes due to his union activities while Ditka probably gained some due to his coaching, even though those things "Shouldn't" by rule factor into the voting. But it's not entirely fair to say Ditka went in four years earlier therefore he was the better TE.
Second, Mackey was the all-60s decade team TE over Ditka. Not a contemporary comparision so perhaps not as valuable a measure as All-Pro picks, etc. but at least as valuable a metric as a four year difference in HoF selection.
Third, look at a picture of Ditka, Retzlaff, Jerry Smith, and Mackey. You'll see something that probably affected at least a few All-Pro votes in the '60s. I don't want to over-state this, but I think it was a factor affecting Mackey's contemporary recognition.
4. Ditka almost created the position. Mackey made it a deep threat. He was fast enough to return kicks for a 30.1 yards per average as a rookie. In his career he caught 25 TDs over 30 yards and 13 over 50 yards (plus the Super Bowl V TD) compared to Ditka's 9 and 2. His career 15.8 yards per catch compares favorably to Ditka's 13.6.
I don't have a big problem with Ditka being #1 or Gonzalez #2 in your list. But I'd rank Mackey #3 over Winslow, Sharpe, and Casper.
All in all, my comments notwithstanding, a good article.
Mackey was the best...period. Best blocker and difficult to bring down on the receiving end. The reason for his late entry into the HOF was due to the late Baltimore sportswriter John Steadman--who always held it against Mackey (reasons unknown) for being the first president of the Players Association in 1970, and Steadman carried huge weight among the voters. He was able to keep him out of the Hall until it became ridiculously political (similar to Cleveland writer Tony Grossi and Art Modell)and they finally voted him in. Also remember the Colts had other great receivers--Berry, Orr, Moore, and a second tight end Tom Mitchell, so his numbers weren't as high as if they were on another club. The freight train from Syracuse..
Thanks for the input, mrh. Certainly valid points. In looking at the 1965 season, I think there is also an argument that Ditka got the second team all-pro selection on reputation over Mackey (Retzlaff's numbers were still incredible that season), because Mackey's numbers were better in every respect that season than Ditka's. I don't think its been that big a problem recently or over most of the time period when it comes to tight end voting--I think they get it right most times and there are enough stats involved in the position that players don't just continue to get selected on reputation. However, maybe it was a bigger issue back in Mackey's day, in which case Mackey's resume would look better and Ditka's a little worse.
I know what you are saying about Mackey's size, strength and speed. I'm sure that factored in his selection for that show. That is impressive. I guess I'm looking at the question differently, because I am looking at who has the best resumes. I don't care if you are built like Warrick Dunn or Jerome Bettis, if you put the numbers and seasons up on the field.
I would just like to add Mackey was catching passing from Unitas nearly his whole career, while the best Ditka got was Billy Wade.
The only problem I have with Ditka at #1 is that he only had 4 really good seasons (all being his first 4 actually). After that, he wasn't much. I think Kellen Winslow was the first TE to actually show some dominance for several years, and then guys like Shannon Sharpe and Gonzalez have raised the bar. They have shown career excellence with longevity. A lot of great TE's throughout history have 5 quality seasons or so. That's not acceptable anymore. You have to continue to be good. I'd expect Gates to keep things up and rise pretty high on this list.
Wow, what an entry!!! Where do I begin?
First of all, you weren't the only one shocked by Gonzalez at #8. That and Gates at #10 indicates a strong era bias by the NFL Network (although they were perfectly happy putting Shannon Sharpe on a pedestal).
Second, now that you mention it it is extremely surprising that Todd Christensen is nowhere on the Top 10 List, especially since he had a season of over 100 receptions.
The only quibble I have is that you let your KC bias show through--just the one time--by dinging Gates by saying "Plenty of guys have been the best tight end for a three year stretch" while lauding Winslow for three seasons at the top. Sure they were both Chargers TEs but you barely remember Winslow, while Gates is a contemporary rival of an admitted favorite player
Agreed about Jackson and Coates. When Jackson joined the Fins it was officially the very first time a player changed teams via the current system of unrestricted free agency and a HUGE deal at the time but as a Dolphin I never understood what all the fuss was--Jackson at that time just wasn't all that great. At the same time I remember thinking Coates was awesome and HOF bound, and I feel he would've been had he not plummeted off a cliff in record time.
I also actually feel kinda bad for Jackie Smith. I really think he made the Top 10 List out of sympathy for The Drop and then he has to get exposed as not really being all that great on top of it, the poor guy. You know he gets asked about that play every day of his life too.
I also found it strange, funny and disturbing that Newsome's bit concentrated so much on what a lousy blocker he was. Why even have a guy like that in the top 10 of anything if you're just going to yammer on about how bad he was at something?
I would have to say that when you consider his era and how he performed during it, John Mackey is the "best." Insofar as Jackie Smith, I think if he is not in the top 10, he belongs in the top 15. I saw him plenty of times against Dallas growing up and he could really catch and run. He seemed to be a better than average blocker too. Luv the post and the comments. Nice to see discussion that is considerate and reasoned!
That was one great post. I have no idea why Christiansen's seemingly been forgotten. His 1983-1987 run was incredible.
As for Mackey, Ravcolt's note about John Steadman working to keep Mackey out of the Hall is an interesting nugget of info. I don't believe Steadman's (and other HOF voters) gripe was against Mackey's union activities per se. What Mackey actually did to offend so many in the NFL establishment was suing the NFL. Mackey challenged the "Rozelle Rule" requring fair compensation for the loss of a free agent. Obviously that rule rendered free agency meaningless. Mackey won his lawsuit, the courts holding the rule violated antitrust laws. Unfortunately, the NFLPA stupidly gave it all away in collective bargaining and didn't get it back until the early 90's.
When Ditka made the Hall he said "I don't understand how I got in before John Mackey."
I'm too ignorant on the subject to add anything of substance - especially about the older guys. Out of curiosity, who were the top 10 TE's according to the player value list? If I remember, right, TE is a 'skill' position so all pro/probowl etc. is not used in the calculations. I'm curious if it came up with a substantially different answer.
Mattie,
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I think it's probably the case that more harm than good is done by using AV to compare players at the same position. AV's main benefit is that it provides some basis for comparing Ben Coates to Dave Duerson. To compare Ben Coates and Keith Jackson, though, it's really not the right tool for the job.
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Also, tight end is a really tricky position for AV to deal with. At this point, AV basically assumes that all tight ends are equal as blockers. Obviously way wrong, but I'm not sure what to do about that.
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Finally, remember that (for now), AV only goes back to 1970. So Mackey and Ditka are off the list. All that said, the total career AV rankings go: Sharpe, Gonzo, Newsome, Odoms, Winslow, Chester, Russ Francis, Casper. Winslow falls because of the short career. On a per-game basis, it goes: Winslow, Gates, Charlie Sanders (only games since 1970 counted), Gonzo, Shockey, Sharpe, Winslow Jr.
I know many of those who posted comments are not familiar with some of the old timers, especially from the 1960's. It should be kept in mind that to make Pro Bowl and All-Pro was easier, espeically in the early part of the 1960's because of the fewer teams. Remeber, this is for the NFL only and does not include the AFL teams. I think it is more impressive now to get that honor that when there were 12-20 teams depending.
With that being said, during the 1960's Ditka and Mackey stood out compared to their peers. Here are some other prominent TE's from the 1960's who racked up decent numbers for their time and even made the Pro Bowl or All-Pro. I listed them with their teams. Of course Jackie Smith (Cardinals) and Jerry Smith (Redksins) make the list because they caught so many balls. Here are some others--be sure to check some of them out on the data base.
Ron Kramer (Pakcers/Lions); Jim Gibbons (Lions); Joe Walton and AAron Thomas (Giants); Gary Ballman and Pete Retzlaf (Eagles); Marlin McKeever and Billy Truaz (Rams); Preston Carpenter (several teams); Dave Parks (Saints); John Hilton (Steelers);
Pettis Norman (Cowboys); Johnny Brewer and Milt Morin (Browns).
A lot of these names will seem obscure to the more youthful readers. As far as Ditka having only 4 good seasons, he was much more productive during those times, but he did ok and was durable and valuable. He was the starting TE for Dallas when they won their first SB and caught a fair # given the low # of throws for the time. Anyway, enough of the "old times."
" It should be kept in mind that to make Pro Bowl and All-Pro was easier, espeically in the early part of the 1960’s because of the fewer teams."
I'm not sure it was easier to be All-Pro, that is, the #1 TE in a given year. After all, theoretically the players who didn't have jobs as starting TEs because there were fewer teams were not BETTER players than the top few TEs who had won jobs - remember it was easier to cut players then since there were no cap hits, so ability played a bigger part in decisions to keep or cut guys. Sure there were exceptions, coaches favorites, very talented backups stuck forever behind a great player with no FA route out, etc. Now given the two separate leagues, it's possible that the best player at a position was in the AFL and being All-Pro in the NFL was a hollow prize. But the all-time AFL TE Fred Arbanas was almost certainly not in Ditka' or Mackey's class as a player, so I don't think he or any other AFL TE would have won the award in the '60s.
I haven't thought hard enough about it, but your point about Pro Bowl selection probably has more merit.
I'm surpised Ben Coates didn't get more consideration. Coates was a beast of a tight end.
So Gonzalez backers can complain that Gates was competing for all-pro honors with him? What about Sharpe and Coates? In 1994, Sharpe put up 87/1010/4 in 15 games and missed out. If not for Coates vulturing some awards, Sharpe probably would have had 6 straight All Pros and you'd have a different name at the top of your list.
Besides, while the raw numbers are incredible, Gonzo's 100-catch season wasn't nearly as impressive in reality, imo. 14 games into the year, Gonzo had 77 grabs for 990 yards and 4 scores- very, very good numbers (projects out to essentially the same numbers as Sharpe's 1994 miss). Then, Kansas City realized they had nothing left to play for, so they decided, "Hey, might as well tank the rest of the season and try to get Gonzo some records in the process". Gonzo got 25/268/2 in the last two weeks, but it's worth noting that those numbers came at significantly below his ypc average on the season (indicative of force-feeding), and that he received an absurd 31 targets during that two-game span. It was very much clear to me as an observer of the team that Kansas City was doing nothing but padding Gonzo's stats.
Not saying that I necessarily disagree with your list, just pointing out that your homer was showing.
While I don't disagree with the results of the list, I don't fully agree with the way you came up with the results. I don't think you can really compare pro bowls and all pros from years past to current players. The way modern medicine has changed allows players to bounce back better from injuries. Not only that, but now there really isn't much of an offseason. When Ditka and Mackey played, they probably spent months in the offseason not even working out. Due to these factors, players didn't have the longevity they do today.
Another thing to consider with all pros that is there's a possibility that just because someone wasn't named all pro, it doesn't mean they still weren't the best that year. They just didn't necessarily have the numbers or maybe he didn't play on a good team and was overlooked. For example, Barry Sanders wasn't first team all pro every year he played, but that doesn't mean in the years he didn't make, he was a lesser back. Or how about Ladainian Tomlinson's season in 2003? He had 1645yds rushing and 100 receptions, yet he didn't even make it to the pro bowl. By your standards, he would get dinged for that season.
Also, as someone mentioned, you have to consider a teams supporting cast. Mackey played on a great Colts team, and more than likely wasn't the first option in the passing game very often. Not when they also had Raymond Berry, Jimmy Orr and a couple of good receiving RBs. In how many season in KC has Gonzalez not been the main weapon in the passing game? They gameplan to get him the ball.
Like I said, I don't necessarily disagree with the final list you came up with. I'd definitely put Gonzo higher than 8th. Definitely top 5.
Until players like Newsome and Winslow arrived,the tight end's career was characterized by sudden attrition. Witness the brief stardom of Charlie Sanders and Jim Mitchell following the relatively protracted dominance of John Mackey (whose prime was paralled by some substantial success from Jackie Smith and Jerry Smith). Ray Chester may be the first to endure longer than John Mackey, but his later years with the Colts featured a lot of dropped balls despite some decent stats so late in in career. John Mackey
was the first to consistently produce the seasonal yards-per-reception average similar to a wide receiver. Mike Ditka was the first to feature in the top ten in receptions. Mackey may have been more prolific if he had not been competing with Berry, Orr, and Moore for Unitas'/Shula's attention. His stalwart blocking also demanded equal attention; it could be as valuable to a diverse gameplan as
his receiving.
Let's face it; the off-season demands for additional income before hyper-salaries also left little time for guys like Ditka and Mackey to refresh their physical assets the way future players were able to do. That's the attrition factor for you.
The special thing about Mackey was the punishing effect that his performance had on opposing defenses. Add to that his potential to turn short receptions into long scoring gallops.Everyone should see his immortal singlehanded foray through a pretty tough Detroit Lions defense in the second round of the '66 schedule. There's never been anything like it before or since. That is what makes him the best to have ever played the grueling position of tight end. His ability to run like Jim Brown after a downfield catch is unique to this day. (I wonder if lacrosse has anything to do with that; both played the sport with distinction at Syracuse University and Long Island high schools.)
I'm really surprised that someone who approaches the sport as cerebrally as you would engage in such ridiculous reasoning as "I want dominance, and Jackie Smith was never an all-pro so he's out."
All-pro and pro bowl voting are high school-caliber popularity contests. As a long-suffering Cardinals fan, I can promise you that we have had plenty of guys on our team who would have been all pros many times over on a team that anyone pays attention to.
Put Jackie Smith on the Cowboys or Steelers with the same (or even worse) stats and he's 1st team All Pro at least a couple of times. If you ever saw the man play you'd realize he was every bit the player that Mackey, Charlie Sanders, or Dave Casper were. Your revised list seems like a cheap effort to replace the NFL Network list with a list of players you like more. I wouldn't be surprised if you could find a statistical reason to bump Jackie from the list - I'm just surprised that you would do it over something so obviously ridiculous as the opinions of a handful of America's Team-worshipping sportswriters as reflected in All Pro voting.
Weak.
So the 2008 NFL season is over. . . once again Tony G was the best TE not only in the AFC, but clearly in the whole league. He has all the big TE stat records, 10 consecutive pro bowls - which is more than any other TE, and in fact more than many of the TE's on this list even played. He is a complete TE that blocks, catches, runs people over, and scores TD's. He's not going to win any 40 yard dashes, but is clearly as hard to cover as any TE on this list. And think about this. . . he's not done! This is not about era, or about how those other guys really weren't that good. They were that good! Mike Ditka almost invented a position. Mackey was a beast. Shannon Sharpe had rediculous numbers until Gonzalez took them all. These guys were great. That's why it is all the more impressive that Gonlalez is just better. That's what it's about . . . the guys before him set the bar incredibly high, but there is no denying that he raised it. He's not just some WR turned TE who got rediculous stats (Shannon Sharpe), he's the real deal. He will go down not just as the best TE the game has ever seen, but even being given no credit for his great run blocking skill, he will be in the conversation of top 15-20 pass receivers period.
First, thanks for putting some research into this. It seems that not a lot of people on the internet do that, so that was appreciated.
I do agree with Gonzalez being in the top 3. He is obviously a great pass catcher, and he made himself into a very good blocker and team leader.
I had no argument with Mackey and Winslow on NFL network's list, but the rest seemed really odd. And as a Chiefs fan who saw both Gonzalez and Sharpe for their entire careers, I was shocked to see Sharpe ahead of him, much less in the top five.
Being in my twenties, I never got a chance to see half of these guys play, but my top five would be (five to one) Newsome, Ditka, Gonzalez, Winslow, Mackey. Mackey looked like an unstoppable SOB.
Before reading comments or even the column my personal opinion was that Sharpe, Kellen Winslow, and Tony Gonzalez were the top 3 in a seperate category from everyone else. Now by the list you can easily see my "present era" bias, however thats due to me only being 29 so I was nowhere near alive at the time causing this Mackey v Ditka debate. Now I admit when I was reminded of Ditka I immediately added him into the top tier but I still have a problem with everyone debating him and Mackey as the automatic number 1. If you look at almost any sports "Greatest of All Time" lists youll see one VERY common factor: Most of the players on it (ESPECIALLY near the top) were people who werent just great short term but had the longevity to create entire careers of greatness. In addition to that one of the other factors were people who either changed their position or changed the entire game (ie hand check rule for Jordan, hack-a-Shack rule to defeat Shaqs inside dominance) Due to that fact and not just being young I dont see how Ditka, Winslow, Sharpe, and Gonzalez wouldnt almost be the automatic top tier. Now with no more information on Mackey maybe he too should be in that group and thats fine. However that doesnt excuse the NFLs list having Gonzalez at 8th on the list when in a season or 2 he'll have nearly ALL pass catching records for Tight Ends in addition to several single season ones.
Continually seeing the argument that Mackey played with Unitas and "several other great receivers" should DEF NOT hurt his case. Those others as we all know become the defense's focus, gameplan, double team which open things up for the others (examples are the 49ers with Craig, Rathman, Rice, Montana, Young, TO, Taylor in whichever year you choose to look, Cowboys with Aikman, Irvin, Emmitt, and Alvin Harper gaining because of the focus on the others, Pippen due to Jordan, and now currently Berrian, (R) Percy Harvin using "playmaker/trick plays" and Farve are doing for Peterson. When a team has only 1 star the defense concentrates solely on him, when the offense has multiple weapons they all create for each other. I dont think that is even debatable, esp after the examples I just listed. And other than this list I have also never seen longevity debated or even ignored when talking about the best of all time. I have NO favorites in this list as I am a Raiders fan from my Father, Cardinals fan from growing up, and Panthers fan from being stationed there for about 10 years. Having said that while you can debate the number 1 of all time (the same way people debate best QB Montana, Unitas, Marino etc; best NBA player Jordan, Kareem, Wilt etc; and always in baseball Babe, Mays, Dimaggio, Williams, Reggie) I dont see how you can debate the top tier of the list (Gonzalez, Ditka, Mackey, Sharpe, Winslow). I REALLY dont see how you could possibly have Gonzalez all the way down in 8th position when his careeer numbers are almost already the best of all time and even at this late stage and age of his career he still remains one of the top 3 dominant TE's in the league and is still ALWAYS one of his teams top 2 receivers per targets, receptions, and TDs. And to top it off he is still obviously the number 1 Red Zone threat in the entire league. So after all that rambling I think the top 3 should be Gonzalez, Ditka, and Mackey with Sharpe and Winslow slightly behind. The bottom 5 in the list are open for a much larger debate as the snubs from the list, overrated on the list etc. I do feel however just like Jerry Rice, if you own ALL the records then its hard to debate that you are not the best of All Time. Already nearly there and with his trade to the Falcons to undoubtedly be Matt Ryans new favorite bailout and Red Zone threat his stats will only keep climbing
I've never taken the time to sit down and analyze the best tight ends of the NFL before, but I have to say impressive "rant."
I stumbled across this because a friend of mine is in a NFL pool at work and I'm gathering current team stats, standings to help out my friend.
I'm a Atlanta Falcon, and the 2 best free agent pickups I can ever think of for my franchise in their history was Michael Turner, last year, and Tony Gonzalez this year.
You present a strong case but I'm sure when Tony finishes out his career in Atlanta with a possible Championship ring (deservedly so for him) rest assured I'm sure he'll bounce into your No. 1 spot.
Great "rant!"
Dave Casper was the best TE I ever saw play. Did you watch the playoff game between the Cowboys and Vikings? Jason Witten attempted to fan out and pass block against all-pro defensive end Jared Allen. The result was his quarterback nearly being decapitated by Allen, who blew by Witten like he was not even there. The announcers rightfully pointed out that it is not fair to expect a tight end to blocker a premier defense end one on one. Funny thing is - Casper did this on a regular basis during his legendary career with the Raiders and Oilers. I saw him block Mark Gastineau several times in a 1982 pre-season game. These were on pass plays and Casper kept Gastineau far away from the quarterback in a textbook display of how to pass block. Later, in the regular season, he sealed the great Lawrence Taylor inside in a regular season game between the Oilers and Giants. A tight end has to want to block. Dallas Clark and Jason Witten are fantastic receivers who are not blockers. Vernon Davis reminds me of a stronger, faster version of Dave Casper although he drops WAY more passes. Casper simply did not drop the ball. Davis is an overpowering blocker and caught 13 TD's among his close to ninety receptions. Gates also is deadly in the redzone and catches a lot of touchdowns. Witten is fantastic at moving the chains, getting open, etc. But his TD production does not rival Gates who has about twice as many TD catches as Witten on about the same number of career catches and yards. Gates is also excellent after the catch. In short, Casper was the best ever as a combination blocker and receiver IMO.
I believe it is Ghost's 58th birthday today so happy birthday Dave if you ever see this! In 2002 on this date, Dave Casper was elected to the pro football hall of fame where he belongs. Nice 50th birthday present for the great one.
I thought I would mention an underrated tight end that played as well as most on this list. Minnesota Viking TE STEVE JORDAN made six straight pro bowls, excelled at ALL facets of being a pro. Intelligence (ivy league-brown; very few dumb holding penalties or offsides penalties) great blocker and receiver, and no doubt is worthy of mention as one of the all time greats.
Watch out for Jason Witten...he's moving fast to be on this list! Already 2 All-Pro 1st team.. 1 all-pro 2nd team.. 7 consecutive pro-bowls.. fastest tightend to reach 600 receptions in NFL history.. tied for most reception by a tightend w/ 15. Outstanding blocker. So many great years ahead of him
How is it that Frank Wycheck is not even mentioned in this article.....do not understand that at all. Amazing