Matt Ryan, rookie extraordinaire
Posted by Chase Stuart on December 9, 2008
It seems just about everyone has noticed the great seasons that Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco are having.
Best Rookie QB Ever?
Ryan Playing Like No Rookie
Ryan vs. Flacco
Legendary 2008
Learning Curve
With a vast database and a good way to rank the quarterbacks, I think we can answer the question of where Matt Ryan stands in NFL history. Remember, this past summer I ranked every season by every quarterback in NFL history. Using that same methodology, we can compare Ryan (and Flacco) to all rookies that have come before them.
Here's a quick refresher. I start with a quarterback's adjusted net yards per attempt ratio. That formula is calculated by looking at a QB's number of passing yards, adding 10 points for all touchdown passes, subtracting 45 yards for all interceptions, subtracting one yard for every sack yard lost, and then dividing that number by the QB's total number of sacks plus pass attempts. Regular PFR readers know that I recently decided to up the TD bonus to 20 yards per score, but updating the old QB list with that new metric is a job best saved for the off-season. We'll stick with 10 yards for all TD passes for now.
After figuring out the ANY/A metric for each QB, you have to compare that number to the ANY/A number for all other quarterbacks in the NFL. Then to figure out "QB value added", you take the difference between the QB's ratio and the league average ratio, and multiply it by the number of pass attempts (including sacks) the QB had. Quarterbacks also additional bonus yards for all rushing yards over 4.0 yards per carry. If that sounds a bit complicated, let's use Dan Marino's 1983 season as an example.
Marino had 2,210 passing yards, 20 TDs (200 adjusted yards), 6 INTs (-270 adjusted yards) and only 80 sack yards lost (-80 adjusted yards) on 296 passes and 10 sacks (306 total attempts). That means Marino averaged 6.73 adjusted net yards per pass, which is very good now and was even better in 1983. Outside of Marino, NFL QBs in 1983 averaged 4.53 ANY/A, meaning Marino averaged a full 2.20 more adjusted yards per passing play. Multiplied by his 306 passing plays, and Marino gets credit for being 674 yards above average in 1983.
How does that rank all time? Here's a list of all rookie QBs that added over 250 adjusted yards over average as rookies (note: for years where the NFL season was fewer than 16 games, every QB's value was prorated as if they played a season length between what they actually did and 16 games; so Charlie Conerly's season was pro-rated to a 14 game season). Because of the somewhat nebulous nature of how to define a rookie, I'm going to be overinclusive by counting the first season in which a player recorded a stat as his rookie year; however, for guys whose rookie seasons were not their draft year or if the player spent time in another professional football league first, I put two asterisks by their name.
Score year att pyd ptd pint any/a 674 Dan Marino mia 1983 296 2210 20 6 6.73 581 Greg Cook cin 1969 197 1854 15 11 5.81 513 Charlie Conerly** nyg 1948 299 2175 22 13 6.05 476 Marc Bulger** ram 2002 214 1826 14 6 7.05 392 Sid Luckman chi 1939 51 636 5 4 9.92 392 Johnny Unitas** clt 1956 198 1498 9 10 5.75 392 Ben Roethlisberger pit 2004 295 2621 17 11 6.41 384 Norm Van Brocklin ram 1949 58 601 6 2 9.84 367 Jim Kelly** buf 1986 480 3593 22 17 5.20 343 Billy Wade** ram 1954 59 509 2 1 8.20 323 Pat Haden** ram 1976 105 896 8 4 6.02 320 Johnny Lujack** chi 1948 66 611 6 3 8.12 319 Joe Namath nyj 1965 340 2220 18 15 5.07 312 Butch Songin** nwe 1960 392 2476 22 15 5.16 298 Jacky Lee oti 1960 77 842 5 6 8.08 296 Ed Rubbert was 1987 49 532 4 1 10.36 287 Bob Celeri** nyy 1951 238 1797 12 15 5.22 286 Tom Flores** rai 1960 252 1738 12 12 5.23 262 Dick Jamieson** nyj 1960 70 586 6 2 7.94 256 Aaron Brooks** nor 2000 194 1514 9 6 5.93 254 Jeff Garcia** sfo 1999 375 2544 11 11 5.27
Obviously it's not easy to compare Sid Luckman's 1939 season to Ed Rubbert's 1987 season to Jim Kelly's 1986 year. The above list doesn't give enough credit to the guys who played the most (a good indicator that the rookie was playing well), so we should drop the baseline to three-quarters of league average, instead of league average. Here's what I think is the best list for measuring the greatest rookie QB seasons of all time:
Score year att pyd ptd pint any/a 1020 Dan Marino mia 1983 296 2210 20 6 6.7 964 Jim Kelly** buf 1986 480 3593 22 17 5.2 916 Charlie Conerly** nyg 1948 299 2175 22 13 6.1 814 Ben Roethlisberger pit 2004 295 2621 17 11 6.4 801 Greg Cook cin 1969 197 1854 15 11 5.8 777 Butch Songin** nwe 1960 392 2476 22 15 5.2 756 Marc Bulger** ram 2002 214 1826 14 6 7.1 743 Warren Moon** oti 1984 450 3338 12 14 4.9 722 Jeff Garcia** sfo 1999 375 2544 11 11 5.3 699 Joe Namath nyj 1965 340 2220 18 15 5.1 634 Johnny Unitas** clt 1956 198 1498 9 10 5.7 620 Charlie Batch det 1998 303 2178 11 6 5.3 595 Byron Leftwich jax 2003 418 2819 14 16 4.9 586 Tom Flores** rai 1960 252 1738 12 12 5.2 570 Bob Celeri** nyy 1951 238 1797 12 15 5.2 509 Aaron Brooks** nor 2000 194 1514 9 6 5.9 482 Dieter Brock** ram 1985 365 2658 16 13 4.5 472 Fran Tarkenton min 1961 280 1997 18 17 5.0 460 Matt Leinart crd 2006 377 2547 11 12 4.9 457 Paul Governali** byk 1946 192 1293 13 10 5.1 452 Vince Young oti 2006 357 2199 12 13 4.2 451 Norm Van Brocklin ram 1949 58 601 6 2 9.8 444 Sid Luckman chi 1939 51 636 5 4 9.9 441 Mark Rypien** was 1988 208 1730 18 13 5.5 438 M.C. Reynolds crd 1958 195 1422 11 11 5.3
That list is a pretty solid ordering of the best rookie seasons ever. Conventional wisdom puts Marino and Roethlisberger at the top, along with Greg Cook if the author has heard of him. Depending on whether you want to count Kelly as a rookie in 1986 -- he previously had played two excellent seasons in the USFL -- he is at the top of the list, as well.
So where do Ryan and Flacco rank? Through 13 games, Ryan has 2940 passing yards, 14 TD (140 adjusted yards), 7 INT (-315 adjusted yards), and 80 sack yards lost (-80 adjusted yards) on 366 pass attempts and 13 sacks. That's an average of 7.08 adjusted net yards per pass attempt.
Flacco has 2410 passing yards, 13 TD (130), 10 INT (-450), and 208 sack yards lost (-208) on 352 pass attempts and 23 sacks. That's an average of 5.02 adjusted net yards per pass attempt.
The NFL average for all passers is 5.32 ANY/A through 13 weeks. Last year the average was 5.11 but we can expect the league average to go down as some more December games are played. To calculate a QB's "value added", you simply compare each QB to the other QBs in the league. Ryan's averaged 7.08 ANY/A while all other QBs have averaged 5.27 ANY/A. So Ryan's been averaging 1.81 more adjusted net yards per pass attempt than other QBs in the NFL, over the course of 379 passing plays. That gives him a value added of 686 yards over average. Flacco's averaged 5.02 ANY/A while all other NFL QBs have averaged 5.33 ANY/A -- that obviously puts Flacco at slightly below the league average. While Flacco's posted impressive numbers this season, he's hurt by his high number of sacks and sack yards lost.
If we use the 3/4 of league average mark, Ryan jumps to 1185 yards over replacement and Flacco at 386 yards over replacement (383 passing yards over replacement plus a three yard rushing bonus). Once again, that seems like a more proper way to measure Flacco's success, as he really has been one of the best rookies we've seen in awhile. Unfortunately, he's playing at the same time as maybe the best rookie we've ever seen. As long as Ryan doesn't implode the rest of the season, he will finish the 2008 season as the greatest rookie QB of all time.
Here are some other historical measures of rookie QB success.
- The NFL began playing Pro Bowls after the 1938 season. Only Vince Young (2006), Dan Marino (1983), Bob Griese (1967), Joe Namath (1965) and Davey O'Brien (1939) made the Pro Bowl as rookies. Ryan's got some tough competition in the NFC this year -- Kurt Warner and Drew Brees both may throw for 5,000 yards while Eli Manning might be leading a 14-2 Giants team. But he's got a chance to become just the third rookie QB since the merger to make the Pro Bowl.
- Since 1950, only one rookie QB has been named to an All Pro team -- Dan Marino. Prior to that year, the only QBs to make an All Pro team based on their accomplishments as quarterbacks were Bob Waterfield (1945), Davey O'Brien (1939) and Sammy Baugh (1937).
- Only three QBs have even been named AP Rookie of the Year, which began being awarded in 1967. Vince Young, Ben Roethlisberger and Dennis Shaw. Only one player has won an NFL MVP award as a rookie -- Bob Waterfield on the 1945 Rams.
Of course, no post by me on QBs would be complete without a look at the least valuable rookie seasons of all time. Here's the list, using the league average as the baseline:
-1243 Bud Schwenk crd 1942 295 1360 6 27 0.69 - 942 David Carr htx 2002 444 2592 9 15 3.07 - 838 Stan Heath gnb 1949 106 355 1 14 -2.50 - 831 Ryan Leaf sdg 1998 245 1289 2 15 1.85 - 815 Kyle Orton chi 2005 368 1869 9 13 2.97 - 813 Dan Darragh buf 1968 215 917 3 14 1.47 - 785 Jack Trudeau clt 1986 417 2225 8 18 2.87 - 784 Paul Christman** crd 1945 219 1147 5 12 3.00 - 781 Jeff Komlo det 1979 368 2238 11 23 2.33 - 769 Alex Smith sfo 2005 165 875 1 11 1.06 - 764 Andrew Walter** rai 2006 276 1677 3 13 2.69 - 753 Lamar McHan crd 1954 255 1475 6 22 2.14 - 723 Randy Hedberg tam 1977 90 244 0 10 -3.21 - 719 John McCarthy crd 1944 67 250 0 13 -5.00 - 711 Terry Bradshaw pit 1970 218 1410 6 24 0.61 - 706 Chris Weinke car 2001 540 2931 11 19 3.55 - 701 Tobin Rote gnb 1950 224 1231 7 24 0.99 - 681 Steve DeBerg** sfo 1978 302 1570 8 22 1.58 - 620 Richard Todd nyj 1976 162 870 3 12 0.66 - 586 Norm Snead was 1961 375 2337 11 22 3.89 - 583 Bruce Gradkowski tam 2006 328 1661 9 9 3.40 - 567 Joey Harrington det 2002 429 2294 12 16 3.70 - 562 Steve Fuller kan 1979 270 1484 6 14 2.18 - 555 Tom Sherman nwe 1968 226 1199 12 16 2.65 - 554 Bert Jones clt 1973 108 539 4 12 -0.71 - 549 Donovan McNabb phi 1999 216 948 8 7 2.09 - 547 Terry Hanratty pit 1969 126 716 8 13 0.29 - 544 Gary Huff chi 1973 126 525 3 8 0.10 - 535 Kent Nix pit 1967 268 1587 8 19 3.03 - 528 Randy Johnson atl 1966 295 1795 12 21 3.29 - 516 Rick Mirer sea 1993 486 2833 12 17 3.66 - 508 Troy Aikman dal 1989 293 1749 9 18 2.80
December 9th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Obviously similarity scores for Ryan will be difficult, since no rookie aside from maybe Marino has done what Ryan's done. But is there any good indicator of what a stellar rookie season means for the rest of a QB's career?
Also, I really hate thinking about Greg Cook. What a tragedy.
December 9th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Hey, just wanted to let you know that there is 0% chance Eli Manning leads a 15-1 Giants team this year.
[Chase edit: Thanks for the catch. I've updated the post.]
December 9th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
What were the records of the teams in the seasons indicated? Is the fact that Kyle Orton's 2005 is the 5th worst rookie QB season ever despite playing on an 11 - 5 team a damning indictment of Bob Babich's performance as Ron Rivera's replacement as it seems to look?
December 9th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
JD--I think you would have sim scores all over the map. I mean, look at the lists. On the WORST list, you have Bradshaw, Aikman, and McNabb. Plus some other guys like DeBerg and Burt Jones. Then there are a couple of others who have hung around for a while as backups. The best list, even with the asterisk guys, has some top-notch HOFers and others whose names I had never heard of.
Specifically looking at Ryan, I've got to believe he has a good to great career barring injuries. I would say Big Ben/McNabb as a floor, Peyton Manning as a ceiling. QB's usually get better as they learn to read defenses and get live game reps. As a Saints fan, I don't look forward to 2 games a year against him for the next 10-15 years.
December 9th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Counterintuitive list on the worst side. I know David Carr took about a million sacks, but worse than Ryan Leaf, Alex Smith, and Terry Bradshaw doesn't sound right. Is this because Carr played more than Leaf and Smith did? Orton seems low, too, considering that he was more of a talentless game manager than a bumbling season-destroyer.
Skeptical about Ryan over Marino, Cook, Big
Ben, Namath, and Conerly. Ryan is what, maybe the 6th or so best QB in the NFL this year?
I also think it's VERY premature to give him Big Ben/McNabb as a floor. That's quite a floor. And other than Ben, what recent rookie QBs have built on early success? Charlie Batch, Byron Leftwich, Matt Leinart, and Vince Young are all on the "Good" list, and all of them are backups now.
December 9th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Hey Brad,
Carr is definitely hurt because of his large number of plays. Basically, he was a bit below average for a full year; Terry Bradshaw was really bad for half a year. So Carr has accumulated more negative value than Bradshaw.
If we used 3/4 as the baseline instead of half, I suspect Carr would look much better.
As for the Ryan comment, I'm not sure what you're seeing out of the other guys to put them ahead of Ryan. His numbers are outstanding and many think his play is even better. I think Marino can make a case for being better, but thats really about it.
December 9th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
Great article - read it with much enthusiasm. On my site, I tried to settle the Flacco versus Ryan argument myself, having read the "Learning Curve" blog post. I hadn't taken the extra step of comparing to other rookie seasons (i.e. Marino). I am in the process of developing a new QB Rating method. It doesn't incorporate yards or touchdowns, instead relying only on completions and interceptions. Yes, I know, it has the same problem as all the other measures, in that rewards the QBs in the more recent years. I am working on a statistical adjustment to "normalize" all the years, so that qbs over time can be compared.
Keep up the great work.
December 9th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
The real BENCHMARK YEAR to shoot for for any QB in the year that they are starting an NFL game for the 1st time is Kurt Warner's year in 1999. I realize that Warner got into 1 game in '98 and had all of 11 pass attempts, but he didn't start a game until '99. But what a year for his 1st year as a starter, ending with a S.B. win and MVP award. You can bet that's what Ryan and Flacco would very much like to duplicate.
December 9th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
The best list looks heavily populated by the non-rookie rookies... I suppose one could come up with an "experience" formula that takes both age and games (or games started, or pass attempts) into account. Utilizing thy database of power, you could even derive a formula that fits the data points.
Another thing that occurred to me -- You could do something similar to what you've done with lifetime value numbers to try and even out the length of their rookie season, only instead of years, you'd be using games, or attempts. Perhaps something as simple as sqrt(attempts) or ln(attempts), so more attempts is still rewarded, but rookies who were exceptionally good (or bad) for 8 games wouldn't be precluded from making an appearance on the lists.
December 9th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
interesting post
December 10th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Nice post, and I agree that filtering out the non-rookie rookies woudl give a better pciture fo who to compare these guys to. No one should udnerestimate the bonus of having multiple training camps, conditioning sessions, etc. by being a 2nd or 3rd year non-rookie rookie.
How soon some of these other websites forget that big ben was not a game manager in the screen pass champion 2001 brady mold. Big Ben was asked to nail deep throws to keep defenses from stuffing the box and convert long 3rd downs when the run game was stuffed.
December 10th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
One other thing to consider---alot of Rookie QB's get to start their careers (Rookie Year) with a team that wasn't very good the year before. Marino was one of the very few that got to lead a Super Bowl caliber Team from the year before.
December 17th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
I think you have to take out the guys who weren't true rookies. The success of players who start day one vs. those who get to sit on the bench a year or two and learn is well documented. So, taking into account only the "true" rookies, it's down to Marino and Roethlisberger. I think you have to say Ben's the best. He had a much higher comp % than Marino(66%! to 58) and notably higher yds/completion, which led to Ben having over 400 more passing yards than Marino with less attempts. He had less TD's, but you can attribute a lot of that to all those "Bus" one-yard TD runs Pittsburgh had that year. People like to make the argument that Ben inherited a good team, but as someone pointed out, so did Marino. In fact, the '03 Steelers (year prior to BR being drafter) were 6-10, whereas Miami made it to the Super Bowl the year before Marino was drafted! Finally, if you watched Pittsburgh at all that year, they looked pretty mediocre at best with Maddox at the helm and the same when Ben finally played like a rookie in the playoffs. I’d like to see this statistical analysis without sacks included; unless yr David Carr and getting sacked 70 times, I don’t think that statistic has much significance to these kind of discussions. I mean, the NFL didn’t even keep official sack statistics until ’82. Btw "SOBL", you nailed it - what first amazed me about Ben as a rookie was his ability to flat out make tough throws deep down the field that you almost never see rookies make. Not to take anything from Matt Ryan, but I've seen a lot of short passes by him taken much further by RB/receivers making long runs-after-catch.
December 19th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
More Ben R. best rookie QB-ever propaganda:
1) Bill Parcells said Ben Roethlisberger, according to whatever system Bill applied, "rated out as the best Rookie QB ever". Whatever you think of him as a person or even a coach in later years, Bill Parcells knows football, and has been around the game forever. Remember as well he was coaching the Giants during Marino's rookie year, so he was most certainly well-versed on his performance then
2) Ben vs. Matt Ryan – I looked up some interesting situational stats that weren't covered in this analysis, to perhaps give you some other factors to think about in this discussion. Note: these two areas were chosen (before any stats were looked at!) based on the idea that they represent the two situations in games where QB’s are often needed the most by their team (and where rookies tend to struggle the most), i.e. when trailing or in the final part of the game –
"When Behind"
*Roethlisberger (118 att, %71.2 comp, 10.1 avg, 10 TD, 6 INT, 50% 1st down, 110.6 rate)
*Ryan (155 att, 60% comp,7.1 avg, 3 TD, 3 INT, 34.2% 1st, 79.9 rate)
"4th Quarter"
*Roethlisberger (76 att, 75% comp, 8.6 avg, 6TD, 3INT, 46.1% 1st, 110.5 rate)
*Ryan (95 att, 60% comp, 7.3 avg, 4TD, 1 INT, 32.6%1st, 92.4 rate)
-Obviously, with any stat analysis like this, nothing can be proven, but you can clearly see that Ben leads in pretty much every category here. I figured since it’s hard to compare their overall numbers (as Ryan has many more attempts), it might be good to look at some more specific detail.
December 19th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Good points, Travis. Two rebuttals:
1) Roethlisberger had a 9.5% sack rate compared to Ryan's-through-14-games rate of 3.5%; that's a nontrivial difference. Big Ben's adjusted yards per pass rate was higher, but Ryan's net adjusted yards per pass rate is higher.
2) The number of attempts matters. Being awesome for 500 attempts is greater than being awesome for 300 attempts. I am more impressed with what Ryan's done.
December 29th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Can you update this post with the end of the year stats for both Flacco and Ryan and where they compare all time.
December 29th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Hey pm,
Calculating the league average ANY/A will take a bit of time. But Ryan ended the year at 6.82 ANY/A on 429 combined attempts, Flacco 4.63 on 435 combined attempts. Using 5.10 as the league average (just a guess; I'll get the real result later) would put Ryan at +738 in value over average and +1285 over replacement.
Ryan cooled off a bit the past few weeks, but those numbers would put him #1 on both lists. If the league average is just a bit higher, though, Marino would remain number one at least on the relative to league average list.
December 30th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Ooops. Those were Ryan's and Flacco's numbers before week 17. This is a good way to show how the system works, though.
In week 17, Ryan was 10-21 for 160 yards, 1 TD and 2 INT, with one sack that lost six yards. That's a really bad game -- 76 adjusted yards on 22 attempts, or 3.45 ANY/A. That's obviously below average; if we use 5.10 as league average (I still haven't calculated the actual league average yet) that would give him 36 yards below average. Before week 17, he was at 738 yards above average; this would end him at 702 yards above average. So his last game hurt him, which is why I like using the league average as some sort of standard -- more games can hurt you.
Of course, we can calculate Ryan's entire season the normal way and get the same result. He had 451 combined attempts, 3440 passing yards, 16 TD, 11 INT and 104 sack yards lost. That's 6.65 ANY/A and 701 yards above average (difference due to rounding). That's obviously getting closer and closer to Marino; for their two seasons to be equal, the league average would need to be 5.16. It should be very, very close. Further, once we up the TD bonus to 20 yards, Ryan should fall behind Marino. On the other hand, I feel the 3/4 mark is a more accurate one to use for these sorts of purposes.
Using 5.10 as league average, Ryan is 701 yards above average and 1276 yards above replacement. Flacco is at 4.99 ANY/A, so he'd be at -51 yards above average and 536 yards above replacement.
December 31st, 2008 at 9:53 am
Can you update the post if you have the data and say where Flacco ranks on both list. Do you think Flacco is one of the all-time great rookie QB's (top 10).
December 31st, 2008 at 10:20 am
pm,
Calculating ANY/A for the league will take a bit of time and I've got a few other things on my plate right now; but using 5.10 as a good guess for the league average, Flacco would have 536 yards above replacement.
That's obviously behind Ryan/Marino/Roethlisberger/Cook, the Mount Rushmore of rookie QBs. It will be behind Joe Namath, who had quite the rookie season himself -- he ranked 10th in value above average and had 11th in replacement value compared to all other QBs in 1965; Flacco won't rank nearly that high compared to all other QBs in '08. Unitas had a similarly good rookie year nine years earlier.
Charlie Batch had a strong rookie season for the Lions, as did Byron Leftwich for the Jags. I'd slot Flacco's '08 season right behind them, for ninth on the all time list. I'd ignore the rookie seasons from Conerly, Songin, Bulger, Moon, Garcia, Flores and Celeri; in my mind, they weren't rookies in the sense of the word that Flacco is a rookie. Unitas is a slightly different case, but I feel very comfortable classifying him as a rookie in 1956.
Of the eight rookie seasons I slotted ahead of Flacco, only Leftwich's should be controversial because he averaged fewer ANY/A than Flacco. But even just five years ago, leaguewide ANY/A was only 4.83; so Leftwich was slightly above average and Flacco was slightly below average.
December 31st, 2008 at 1:34 pm
I ran the numbers, PM, and they were interesting. NFL QBs had their greatest season ever, averaging 5.33 ANY/A (and 5.70 ANY/A if you go with 20 yards/TD). That 5.33 is quite a bit higher than the 5.0 average of the past three seasons.
What's it mean? Ryan and his 6.65 average on 451 attempts? Outside of Ryan, the league average was 5.299; therefore he added 611 yards over league average. Obviously that puts him in second place. Compared to replacement, though, he added 1209 yards of value. Therefore, I still feel comfortable with calling him the best rookie QB of all time.
Flacco averaged 4.99 and the rest of the league averaged 5.343. That means he was 163 yards worse than average and 452 yards above replacement. Ironically, that puts him right on the Matt Leinart/Vince Young level.
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Where does Peyton Manning's Rookie season rank on this list?
January 10th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Chase---IMO, you're not seeing the BIG PICTURE with this thread when you use the stats that you choose to use and completely ignore what these guys do in the Playoffs. Joe Flacco just distanced himself from the rest by leading his Team to a 2nd PO win, and that cannot be ignored. Could he have thrown some picks and lost either of these games---absolutely, but he didn't. Flacco's ROOKIE SEASON now has to go down as the BEST EVER.
February 4th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Denny,
No comparison will satisfy all parties in a sport filled with endless variables. However this, for better or for worse, is a regular season discussion. Kudos to the Ravens for winning a couple of playoffs games, but statistically Ryan's individual performance in the regular was significantly better.
February 24th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
AG----Yep, I hear you, but keep in mind what Dan Marino said sometime after the '84 S.B. game. And I quote:" I'd trade every Record we broke to be Super Bowl Champs". Do you get the feeling that Dan was well aware of the significance of the Playoffs vs. the Reg. season? I sure do. As we are both aware, Dan's Records that he was referring to were ALL Reg. season Records.