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Quarterbacks: Career Playoff Drive Stats
Robert Duvall once said "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" in Apocalypse Now. I have never smelled napalm before, but there is something I enjoy. I love the smell of freshly produced spreadsheets on quarterbacks that will provide the data to expose myths and spit in the face of conventional wisdoms. I want to know why certain teams succeed and others fail, especially in the postseason. Well after my latest research efforts, I feel much more knowledgeable about certain quarterbacks and why their playoff record is what it is.
Just in time for a big quarterback match-up in Super Bowl XLV between Ben Roethlisberger and Aaron Rodgers, I compiled playoff drive stats for two dozen quarterbacks that have played in the last thirty years. It was my goal to get every quarterback with at least 8 playoff starts since 1980, and I almost succeeded. Only Phil Simms, Joe Theismann, Jim Plunkett and Danny White were left out due to lack of complete career data. I also included a few active quarterbacks with 4-7 playoff starts to their credit. I used official NFL gamebooks to get this data. While many of these gamebooks offer drive summaries, I actually went through the play-by-play for each drive (over 3400 of them) to get a better understanding of how the game progressed and for more accurate statistics.
Here is a table of stats that you may be familiar with for the quarterbacks involved:
| Player | GP | W | L | Att. | Comp. | Pct. | Yards | YPA | TDs | INTs | Rating |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Aaron Rodgers | 4 | 3 | 1 | 135 | 94 | 69.63 | 1212 | 8.98 | 10 | 3 | 112.9 |
| Kurt Warner | 13 | 9 | 4 | 462 | 307 | 66.45 | 3952 | 8.55 | 31 | 14 | 102.8 |
| Drew Brees | 7 | 4 | 3 | 285 | 189 | 66.32 | 2052 | 7.20 | 15 | 2 | 102.0 |
| Joe Montana | 23 | 16 | 7 | 734 | 460 | 62.67 | 5772 | 7.86 | 45 | 21 | 95.6 |
| Peyton Manning | 19 | 9 | 10 | 718 | 453 | 63.09 | 5389 | 7.51 | 29 | 19 | 88.4 |
| Troy Aikman | 16 | 11 | 5 | 502 | 320 | 63.75 | 3849 | 7.67 | 23 | 17 | 88.3 |
| Brett Favre | 24 | 13 | 11 | 791 | 481 | 60.81 | 5855 | 7.40 | 44 | 30 | 86.3 |
| Steve Young | 20 | 12 | 8 | 471 | 292 | 62.00 | 3326 | 7.06 | 20 | 13 | 85.8 |
| Tom Brady | 18 | 14 | 4 | 637 | 395 | 62.01 | 4108 | 6.45 | 28 | 15 | 85.5 |
| Ben Roethlisberger | 12 | 10 | 2 | 329 | 201 | 61.09 | 2598 | 7.90 | 17 | 14 | 85.4 |
| Warren Moon | 10 | 3 | 7 | 403 | 259 | 64.27 | 2870 | 7.12 | 17 | 14 | 84.9 |
| Jake Delhomme | 8 | 5 | 3 | 226 | 130 | 57.52 | 1847 | 8.17 | 12 | 10 | 83.3 |
| Matt Hasselbeck | 10 | 5 | 5 | 360 | 211 | 58.61 | 2483 | 6.90 | 15 | 9 | 83.1 |
| Tony Romo | 4 | 1 | 3 | 135 | 80 | 59.26 | 832 | 6.16 | 4 | 2 | 80.8 |
| Donovan McNabb | 16 | 9 | 7 | 577 | 341 | 59.10 | 3752 | 6.50 | 24 | 17 | 80.0 |
| John Elway | 22 | 14 | 8 | 651 | 355 | 54.53 | 4964 | 7.63 | 27 | 21 | 79.7 |
| Philip Rivers | 7 | 3 | 4 | 229 | 134 | 58.52 | 1820 | 7.95 | 8 | 9 | 79.2 |
| Eli Manning | 7 | 4 | 3 | 193 | 113 | 58.55 | 1297 | 6.72 | 8 | 7 | 77.6 |
| Dan Marino | 18 | 8 | 10 | 687 | 385 | 56.04 | 4510 | 6.56 | 32 | 24 | 77.1 |
| Randall Cunningham | 12 | 5 | 7 | 365 | 192 | 52.60 | 2426 | 6.65 | 12 | 9 | 74.3 |
| Dave Krieg | 12 | 5 | 7 | 282 | 144 | 51.06 | 1895 | 6.72 | 11 | 9 | 72.3 |
| Jim Kelly | 17 | 9 | 8 | 545 | 322 | 59.08 | 3863 | 7.09 | 21 | 28 | 72.3 |
| Steve McNair | 10 | 5 | 5 | 311 | 184 | 59.16 | 1764 | 5.67 | 6 | 11 | 66.7 |
| Mark Brunell | 11 | 5 | 6 | 307 | 156 | 50.81 | 1833 | 5.97 | 11 | 11 | 66.3 |
Those are your conventional passing stats. Drive stats are something I have taken much interest in the last few years. I guess it started with my work on fourth quarter drives, and has since carried over to the full game. They offer more measures of efficiency and give better insight into how productive a team's offense or defense is and what style or tempo they may play at. Think about basketball and how the stats for a run and gun/fast break offense are going to be different than the numbers of a half-court offense.
The number of possessions a team gets in a game or season is one of the most overlooked parts of football. Every offense and defense is held to the same standard of points and yards scored/allowed, but did the defense that allows 20 points on 8 drives really play better than the defense that allowed 24 points on 13 drives? Some teams get the ball less than others year after year, meaning their offense has to play at a higher level on fewer opportunities. This would make the offense's stats look better, and the defense's look worse since they are not on the field as much as other teams. The Colts have often been a team in recent seasons that are at the bottom or close to it in offensive possessions every season. Jon Gruden, on a Monday Night Football telecast in Miami in 2009, is probably the only analyst I have heard reference this fact in the media.
If you are not familiar with drive stats, I would highly recommend a visit to that section on the FootballOutsiders site, where Jim Armstrong does a great job of putting out the drive stats on a weekly basis each season. They are listed for 1997-2010. You can familiarize yourself with the kind of numbers you can expect from an offense that is ranked at the top of the league, the average, and at the bottom, to use as a reference when you look over these playoff drive stats.
Disclaimer: the stats presented here are in the quarterback's name, but even more than usual this is really about the team's offensive performance as a whole rather than the individual quarterback. There are certain parts, like the breakdown on interceptions, that are mostly all about the quarterback, but overall drive stats are something you have to keep the team in mind first for. There are of course drives where a quarterback does nothing but hand the ball off every play. The entry "Joe Montana" is another way of saying "1981-90 49ers, 1993-94 Chiefs". Also I will note that I tried to include every drive a QB played in during the playoffs, whether or not they started the game did not matter. I will point out several things, but I will also leave the reader to make their own observations on all the various data presented below. Kneel down drives at the end of either half are excluded.
With that cleared up, on to the data.
The first table is similar to the list of stats you will find on FO's drive stats page. This is the meat of drive stats right here (yards, points, punts, TDs, etc.). Dr/GP represents the number of drives per game played. Do not put a ton of stock in those numbers, such as low-man Steve Young's 9.4, because many of these quarterbacks have played in games they did not start, thus may have only played a drive or two in one game. For Steve Young, I only included his 14 starts and his game against the 1987 Vikings where he replaced Montana in the third quarter. Troy Aikman, John Elway, Mark Brunell, Dave Krieg, and Randall Cunningham also participated in at least one game they did not start. 3OUT% is the percentage of drives that were 3 and outs. QB TOs are the total number of turnovers by the QB himself (interceptions and lost fumbles). Finally, Avg. SFP is the average starting field position the QB had.
| QB | Games | Drives | Dr/GP | Yds/Dr | Pts | Pts/Dr | TDs | TDs/Dr | 3OUT% | Punts | Punts/Dr | QB TOs | TOs/Dr | INTs | Fum | Avg. SFP |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Aaron Rodgers | 4 | 42 | 10.5 | 39.43 | 121 | 2.88 | 16 | 0.381 | 9.5 | 13 | 0.310 | 5 | 0.119 | 3 | 2 | 28.81 |
| Steve Young | 15 | 141 | 9.4 | 34.63 | 347 | 2.46 | 44 | 0.312 | 19.9 | 47 | 0.333 | 18 | 0.128 | 13 | 5 | 31.44 |
| Troy Aikman | 16 | 164 | 10.3 | 32.81 | 400 | 2.44 | 48 | 0.293 | 15.2 | 54 | 0.329 | 19 | 0.116 | 17 | 2 | 33.12 |
| Kurt Warner | 13 | 144 | 11.1 | 33.65 | 338 | 2.35 | 42 | 0.292 | 18.1 | 51 | 0.354 | 17 | 0.118 | 14 | 3 | 32.69 |
| Drew Brees | 7 | 81 | 11.6 | 32.95 | 187 | 2.31 | 22 | 0.272 | 21.0 | 29 | 0.358 | 4 | 0.049 | 2 | 2 | 28.33 |
| Ben Roethlisberger | 12 | 131 | 10.9 | 30.67 | 295 | 2.25 | 36 | 0.275 | 18.3 | 49 | 0.374 | 16 | 0.122 | 14 | 2 | 32.69 |
| Joe Montana | 23 | 248 | 10.8 | 32.41 | 534 | 2.15 | 66 | 0.266 | 21.4 | 98 | 0.395 | 22 | 0.089 | 21 | 1 | 31.62 |
| John Elway | 22 | 239 | 10.9 | 32.03 | 509 | 2.13 | 61 | 0.255 | 17.6 | 92 | 0.385 | 26 | 0.109 | 21 | 5 | 31.79 |
| Peyton Manning | 19 | 200 | 10.5 | 35.13 | 418 | 2.09 | 44 | 0.220 | 22.5 | 68 | 0.340 | 20 | 0.100 | 19 | 1 | 27.62 |
| Jim Kelly | 17 | 195 | 11.5 | 30.89 | 405 | 2.08 | 46 | 0.236 | 20.0 | 64 | 0.328 | 31 | 0.159 | 28 | 3 | 33.18 |
| Brett Favre | 24 | 274 | 11.4 | 29.97 | 555 | 2.03 | 65 | 0.237 | 19.0 | 98 | 0.358 | 35 | 0.128 | 30 | 5 | 33.22 |
| Matt Hasselbeck | 11 | 133 | 12.1 | 28.22 | 260 | 1.95 | 29 | 0.218 | 27.1 | 60 | 0.451 | 9 | 0.068 | 9 | 0 | 32.08 |
| Tom Brady | 19 | 207 | 10.9 | 29.84 | 401 | 1.94 | 44 | 0.213 | 24.6 | 88 | 0.425 | 19 | 0.092 | 16 | 3 | 31.48 |
| Warren Moon | 10 | 107 | 10.7 | 32.37 | 200 | 1.87 | 22 | 0.206 | 18.7 | 33 | 0.308 | 18 | 0.168 | 14 | 4 | 28.01 |
| Dan Marino | 18 | 205 | 11.4 | 28.64 | 366 | 1.79 | 44 | 0.215 | 22.4 | 78 | 0.380 | 29 | 0.141 | 24 | 5 | 30.56 |
| Jake Delhomme | 8 | 93 | 11.6 | 29.61 | 166 | 1.78 | 19 | 0.204 | 23.7 | 42 | 0.452 | 12 | 0.129 | 10 | 2 | 30.35 |
| Philip Rivers | 7 | 77 | 11.0 | 29.69 | 132 | 1.71 | 16 | 0.208 | 20.8 | 35 | 0.455 | 10 | 0.130 | 9 | 1 | 31.19 |
| Donovan McNabb | 16 | 187 | 11.7 | 27.48 | 314 | 1.68 | 34 | 0.182 | 21.9 | 75 | 0.401 | 25 | 0.134 | 17 | 8 | 31.99 |
| Eli Manning | 7 | 72 | 10.3 | 27.79 | 114 | 1.58 | 12 | 0.167 | 23.6 | 31 | 0.431 | 8 | 0.111 | 7 | 1 | 30.08 |
| Mark Brunell | 11 | 113 | 10.3 | 26.42 | 176 | 1.56 | 19 | 0.168 | 25.7 | 45 | 0.398 | 14 | 0.124 | 11 | 3 | 31.16 |
| Steve McNair | 10 | 117 | 11.7 | 26.97 | 180 | 1.54 | 19 | 0.162 | 22.2 | 48 | 0.410 | 13 | 0.111 | 11 | 2 | 32.34 |
| Tony Romo | 4 | 45 | 11.3 | 28.09 | 67 | 1.49 | 7 | 0.156 | 15.6 | 18 | 0.400 | 4 | 0.089 | 2 | 2 | 28.64 |
| Randall Cunningham | 10 | 125 | 12.5 | 25.64 | 183 | 1.46 | 19 | 0.152 | 20.8 | 54 | 0.432 | 14 | 0.112 | 9 | 5 | 32.09 |
| Dave Krieg | 11 | 105 | 9.5 | 23.36 | 138 | 1.31 | 16 | 0.152 | 30.5 | 57 | 0.543 | 10 | 0.095 | 9 | 1 | 31.57 |
Aaron Rodgers with real gaudy numbers across the board, but of course he's only played four games to this point. Still a stark contrast to Tony Romo. Better than being Dave Krieg though. His offenses punted 54.3% of the time, which would put them in worst offense in the league territory for most regular seasons.
You can start to see why some teams have reached multiple Super Bowls with their offense's production. Troy Aikman and Ben Roethlisberger may not be known for leading regular season offensive juggernauts, but in the playoffs, they are among the best ever at putting points on the board. In addition to points they even exceed other quarterbacks known to lead explosive offenses, such as Dan Marino and Philip Rivers, in other categories like yards/drive, while having fewer turnovers and 3 & outs. Of course, there are various factors going on here, and I will dig deeper into several of them.
There are several players that stand out, but the cases of Peyton Manning and Warren Moon are especially interesting. The Houston Oilers, unable to get past the Divisional round, were known as a team with a great regular season offense that continued to lose playoff games they should have won, while the Colts are viewed as a similar team despite winning a Super Bowl and getting to another. Both quarterbacks have very solid individual passing stats and team drive stats, but both have a losing record (Moon is 3-7 while Manning is 9-10). How can that be?
With respect to their defensive issues, field position and a lack of opportunities are two great answers for that. When you so often have games where the offense touches the ball 8-9 times, and has to go 75, 80, 85 or even 90+ yards to score touchdowns, you have to play at a very high level offensively to score a lot of points, and even the best offenses can struggle to do that in the postseason against the best competition. It has become common to see a scene like this in a Colts game as opponents try to play keep away to minimize Manning's opportunities.
Manning and Moon had the worst starting field position of these 24 quarterbacks. Aikman and Roethlisberger? Some of the best starting field position. Would the Colts and Oilers have won more games if they could get more stops on defense to get the ball back to their offense and in better field position? It would seem so, but in the cases of Steve McNair and Randall Cunningham, that would appear to be no guarantee.
Cunningham averaged 12.5 drives/game in the playoffs, highest among this group of quarterbacks. His average starting field position was the 32.09, 7th best. McNair had 11.7 drives/game and the 6th best field position at 32.34. Yet they are near the bottom in points and yards.
Here is an expanded table for starting field position. I broke it down by the number of drives starting at your own 1-9, own 11-19, the 20 yard line exactly, the 21-35, the 36-49, and then Opp. 50+ is anything starting in opponent territory. <20 % is the percentage of drives started at the team's own 20 or worse. Worst GP is the worst average starting field position the QB ever had for a game in the playoffs.
| QB | Games | Drives | Avg. SFP | 1 to 9 | % | 10 to 19 | % | 20 (exact) | % | 21-35 | % | 36-49 | % | Opp. 50+ | % | <20 % | Worst GP |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Warren Moon | 10 | 107 | 28.01 | 10 | 9.35 | 17 | 15.89 | 23 | 21.50 | 35 | 32.71 | 6 | 5.61 | 16 | 14.95 | 46.73 | 20.67 |
| Aaron Rodgers | 4 | 42 | 28.81 | 3 | 7.14 | 6 | 14.29 | 9 | 21.43 | 12 | 28.57 | 6 | 14.29 | 6 | 14.29 | 42.86 | 23.56 |
| Tony Romo | 4 | 45 | 28.64 | 5 | 11.11 | 9 | 20.00 | 4 | 8.89 | 12 | 26.67 | 10 | 22.22 | 5 | 11.11 | 40.00 | 23.50 |
| Peyton Manning | 19 | 200 | 27.62 | 14 | 7.00 | 30 | 15.00 | 33 | 16.50 | 79 | 39.50 | 29 | 14.50 | 15 | 7.50 | 38.50 | 15.67 |
| Steve Young | 15 | 141 | 31.44 | 16 | 11.35 | 16 | 11.35 | 19 | 13.48 | 43 | 30.50 | 18 | 12.77 | 29 | 20.57 | 36.17 | 16.70 |
| John Elway | 22 | 239 | 31.79 | 13 | 5.44 | 34 | 14.23 | 35 | 14.64 | 82 | 34.31 | 36 | 15.06 | 39 | 16.32 | 34.31 | 19.25 |
| Joe Montana | 23 | 248 | 31.62 | 14 | 5.65 | 35 | 14.11 | 36 | 14.52 | 89 | 35.89 | 36 | 14.52 | 38 | 15.32 | 34.27 | 20.20 |
| Drew Brees | 7 | 81 | 28.33 | 6 | 7.41 | 15 | 18.52 | 6 | 7.41 | 35 | 43.21 | 13 | 16.05 | 6 | 7.41 | 33.33 | 21.64 |
| Randall Cunningham | 10 | 125 | 32.09 | 3 | 2.40 | 14 | 11.20 | 24 | 19.20 | 44 | 35.20 | 25 | 20.00 | 15 | 12.00 | 32.80 | 22.38 |
| Dave Krieg | 11 | 105 | 31.57 | 9 | 8.57 | 14 | 13.33 | 10 | 9.52 | 37 | 35.24 | 19 | 18.10 | 16 | 15.24 | 31.43 | 22.40 |
| Jake Delhomme | 8 | 93 | 30.35 | 8 | 8.60 | 12 | 12.90 | 9 | 9.68 | 35 | 37.63 | 20 | 21.51 | 9 | 9.68 | 31.18 | 21.54 |
| Troy Aikman | 16 | 164 | 33.12 | 8 | 4.88 | 18 | 10.98 | 25 | 15.24 | 57 | 34.76 | 30 | 18.29 | 26 | 15.85 | 31.10 | 23.10 |
| Mark Brunell | 11 | 113 | 31.16 | 7 | 6.19 | 20 | 17.70 | 8 | 7.08 | 45 | 39.82 | 19 | 16.81 | 14 | 12.39 | 30.97 | 18.00 |
| Kurt Warner | 13 | 144 | 32.69 | 4 | 2.78 | 21 | 14.58 | 19 | 13.19 | 49 | 34.03 | 29 | 20.14 | 22 | 15.28 | 30.56 | 22.89 |
| Eli Manning | 7 | 72 | 30.08 | 4 | 5.56 | 12 | 16.67 | 6 | 8.33 | 28 | 38.89 | 12 | 16.67 | 10 | 13.89 | 30.56 | 25.22 |
| Dan Marino | 18 | 205 | 30.56 | 9 | 4.39 | 28 | 13.66 | 24 | 11.71 | 86 | 41.95 | 32 | 15.61 | 26 | 12.68 | 29.76 | 19.00 |
| Tom Brady | 19 | 207 | 31.48 | 11 | 5.31 | 33 | 15.94 | 16 | 7.73 | 81 | 39.13 | 36 | 17.39 | 30 | 14.49 | 28.99 | 18.00 |
| Brett Favre | 24 | 274 | 33.22 | 10 | 3.65 | 46 | 16.79 | 23 | 8.39 | 102 | 37.23 | 46 | 16.79 | 47 | 17.15 | 28.83 | 24.11 |
| Jim Kelly | 17 | 195 | 33.18 | 8 | 4.10 | 21 | 10.77 | 26 | 13.33 | 70 | 35.90 | 37 | 18.97 | 33 | 16.92 | 28.21 | 21.50 |
| Ben Roethlisberger | 12 | 131 | 32.69 | 4 | 3.05 | 16 | 12.21 | 16 | 12.21 | 50 | 38.17 | 26 | 19.85 | 19 | 14.50 | 27.48 | 22.78 |
| Donovan McNabb | 16 | 187 | 31.99 | 13 | 6.95 | 24 | 12.83 | 14 | 7.49 | 68 | 36.36 | 40 | 21.39 | 28 | 14.97 | 27.27 | 20.00 |
| Philip Rivers | 7 | 77 | 31.19 | 7 | 9.09 | 6 | 7.79 | 6 | 7.79 | 33 | 42.86 | 12 | 15.58 | 13 | 16.88 | 24.68 | 19.00 |
| Steve McNair | 10 | 117 | 32.34 | 7 | 5.98 | 13 | 11.11 | 8 | 6.84 | 49 | 41.88 | 25 | 21.37 | 15 | 12.82 | 23.93 | 26.33 |
| Matt Hasselbeck | 11 | 133 | 32.08 | 6 | 4.51 | 13 | 9.77 | 9 | 6.77 | 65 | 48.87 | 25 | 18.80 | 15 | 11.28 | 21.05 | 22.10 |
You can see out of the experienced quarterbacks that Moon and Manning have the most drives starting at their own 20 or worse. No one started a higher percentage of drives in opponent territory than Steve Young, though Young did have the highest rate of drives starting inside his own 10 as well, so there is a balancing act for him.
I have seen people say the Colts only scored 17 points in their playoff losses in 2008 and 2009. Looking at this clears that up. The worst field position in any of the 314 games I looked at belongs to Peyton Manning's Colts in the 2008 Wild Card game at San Diego, where they had to start at the 15.67 on average. The Colts did manage to score 17 points that day. The second worst game also belongs to the Colts, and it is the big one: Super Bowl 44 last year (16.63 was their average start). They scored 17 points in that one as well. Steve Young's 16.70 game against the Packers in the 1997 NFC Championship is the third worst game, and the 49ers scored 3 points on offense that day. Touchdowns are harder to come by when the field ahead of you is so long. In the games I looked at there were 1080 drives started at least 80 yards away from the end zone, and only 182 (16.9%) ended in a touchdown.
Speaking of touchdown drives, here's another table. Avg. Yds is the average length (in yards) of the TD drives the quarterback led. Avg. Score is the average point margin of the game when that drive was started. I am not sure how relevant this is to anything, but I threw it in there out of curiosity. In theory I would guess the closer your Avg. Score is to 0, the more that quarterback's TD drives came when the game was very close. A negative number would indicate more of a tendency to put up "garbage time TDs", while a high positive would come from someone on the right side of a blowout win. Again, not sure if this is actually telling of anything or not. Then I broke it down by distances.
| QB | TDs | Avg. Yds | Avg. Score | 70+ | % | 80+ | % | 90+ | % | <50 | % | <40 | % | <30 | % | <20 | % |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Tony Romo | 7 | 72.7 | 2.86 | 5 | 71.4 | 4 | 57.1 | 2 | 28.6 | 1 | 14.3 | 1 | 14.3 | 1 | 14.3 | 1 | 14.3 |
| Peyton Manning | 44 | 70.6 | 1.73 | 29 | 65.9 | 16 | 36.4 | 2 | 4.5 | 3 | 6.8 | 1 | 2.3 | 1 | 2.3 | 1 | 2.3 |
| Aaron Rodgers | 16 | 70.2 | -2.56 | 9 | 56.3 | 8 | 50.0 | 1 | 6.3 | 1 | 6.3 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Philip Rivers | 16 | 69.8 | -4.13 | 11 | 68.8 | 2 | 12.5 | 0 | 0.0 | 3 | 18.8 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Eli Manning | 12 | 69.3 | -2.50 | 6 | 50.0 | 4 | 33.3 | 1 | 8.3 | 1 | 8.3 | 1 | 8.3 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Warren Moon | 22 | 68.5 | -1.55 | 14 | 63.6 | 10 | 45.5 | 1 | 4.5 | 5 | 22.7 | 2 | 9.1 | 1 | 4.5 | 1 | 4.5 |
| Jake Delhomme | 19 | 66.2 | -2.37 | 9 | 47.4 | 5 | 26.3 | 2 | 10.5 | 2 | 10.5 | 2 | 10.5 | 1 | 5.3 | 1 | 5.3 |
| Drew Brees | 22 | 65.0 | -2.68 | 13 | 59.1 | 7 | 31.8 | 1 | 4.5 | 5 | 22.7 | 5 | 22.7 | 2 | 9.1 | 1 | 4.5 |
| Steve McNair | 19 | 64.8 | -3.26 | 7 | 36.8 | 1 | 5.3 | 0 | 0.0 | 1 | 5.3 | 1 | 5.3 | 1 | 5.3 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Brett Favre | 65 | 64.6 | -1.22 | 36 | 55.4 | 16 | 24.6 | 3 | 4.6 | 12 | 18.5 | 9 | 13.8 | 5 | 7.7 | 4 | 6.2 |
| John Elway | 61 | 63.7 | 0.08 | 28 | 45.9 | 21 | 34.4 | 4 | 6.6 | 14 | 23.0 | 8 | 13.1 | 5 | 8.2 | 3 | 4.9 |
| Dan Marino | 44 | 63.0 | -4.41 | 20 | 45.5 | 9 | 20.5 | 1 | 2.3 | 10 | 22.7 | 5 | 11.4 | 2 | 4.5 | 2 | 4.5 |
| Tom Brady | 44 | 61.8 | -0.91 | 18 | 40.9 | 7 | 15.9 | 1 | 2.3 | 9 | 20.5 | 8 | 18.2 | 5 | 11.4 | 1 | 2.3 |
| Mark Brunell | 19 | 61.7 | -1.53 | 9 | 47.4 | 3 | 15.8 | 1 | 5.3 | 3 | 15.8 | 3 | 15.8 | 3 | 15.8 | 2 | 10.5 |
| Kurt Warner | 42 | 61.7 | 0.95 | 19 | 45.2 | 8 | 19.0 | 0 | 0.0 | 9 | 21.4 | 5 | 11.9 | 5 | 11.9 | 2 | 4.8 |
| Dave Krieg | 16 | 61.2 | -4.31 | 5 | 31.3 | 3 | 18.8 | 2 | 12.5 | 3 | 18.8 | 3 | 18.8 | 1 | 6.3 | 1 | 6.3 |
| Joe Montana | 66 | 60.8 | 4.15 | 34 | 51.5 | 16 | 24.2 | 2 | 3.0 | 18 | 27.3 | 14 | 21.2 | 10 | 15.2 | 6 | 9.1 |
| Donovan McNabb | 34 | 60.2 | -2.29 | 15 | 44.1 | 7 | 20.6 | 2 | 5.9 | 9 | 26.5 | 7 | 20.6 | 5 | 14.7 | 3 | 8.8 |
| Randall Cunningham | 19 | 60.1 | -6.47 | 10 | 52.6 | 5 | 26.3 | 0 | 0.0 | 5 | 26.3 | 4 | 21.1 | 3 | 15.8 | 2 | 10.5 |
| Steve Young | 44 | 58.8 | 3.84 | 17 | 38.6 | 9 | 20.5 | 3 | 6.8 | 17 | 38.6 | 12 | 27.3 | 2 | 4.5 | 1 | 2.3 |
| Ben Roethlisberger | 36 | 58.5 | -1.25 | 10 | 27.8 | 4 | 11.1 | 0 | 0.0 | 9 | 25.0 | 8 | 22.2 | 5 | 13.9 | 2 | 5.6 |
| Jim Kelly | 46 | 58.4 | 1.48 | 13 | 28.3 | 5 | 10.9 | 0 | 0.0 | 12 | 26.1 | 7 | 15.2 | 5 | 10.9 | 2 | 4.3 |
| Troy Aikman | 48 | 58.3 | 3.10 | 22 | 45.8 | 10 | 20.8 | 3 | 6.3 | 16 | 33.3 | 13 | 27.1 | 10 | 20.8 | 6 | 12.5 |
| Matt Hasselbeck | 29 | 57.0 | -3.34 | 11 | 37.9 | 2 | 6.9 | 0 | 0.0 | 8 | 27.6 | 5 | 17.2 | 4 | 13.8 | 2 | 6.9 |
Tony Romo may have only led 7 TD drives, but at least they have been some long ones. But now we can see that difference again in Manning/Moon and the likes of Aikman/Roethlisberger. The average TD drive for the former is around 70, while the latter only were going about 58 yards on average. That does matter. Also, Roethlisberger and Jim Kelly have some very similar splits here.
There are some crazy numbers here.
- Only 27.8% of Roethlisberger's TD drives have gone 70+ yards. The average is 48.2%.
- Tony Romo's only led 7 TD drives total, yet two of them are for 90+ yards (28.6%).
- In four games, Aaron Rodgers has already lead more 80+ yard TD drives (8) than Drew Brees (7), Donovan McNabb (7), Tom Brady (7), Jim Kelly (5), and Ben Roethlisberger (4), among several others.
- Warren Moon had 45.5% of his TD drives go 80+ yards. The average is 24.5%.
- Steve Young (38.6%) and Troy Aikman (33.3%) had more TD drives start in opponent territory than anyone else.
- Peyton Manning's had just one TD drive under 40 yards (2.3%). The average is 14.5%.
Keeping with the idea of Avg. Score, here is a table for the breakdown of drives that were started with a lead, tie or a deficit. Avg. Score is again the average point margin for all the drives when the drive started. 3+ SCR DEF is the number of drives that were started with a deficit of three or more scores (17+ points since 1994, 15+ points prior to that). 3+ SCR LEAD is the number of drives started with a lead of three or more scores.
| QB | Drives | Avg. Score | Behind | % | Tied | % | Ahead | % | 3+ SCR DEF | % | 3+ SCR LEAD | % |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Aaron Rodgers | 42 | 2.95 | 12 | 28.57 | 7 | 16.67 | 23 | 54.76 | 4 | 9.52 | 4 | 9.52 |
| Joe Montana | 248 | 2.64 | 93 | 37.50 | 38 | 15.32 | 117 | 47.18 | 7 | 2.82 | 29 | 11.69 |
| Kurt Warner | 144 | 2.50 | 47 | 32.64 | 24 | 16.67 | 73 | 50.69 | 7 | 4.86 | 16 | 11.11 |
| Jim Kelly | 195 | 1.73 | 63 | 32.31 | 48 | 24.62 | 84 | 43.08 | 16 | 8.21 | 25 | 12.82 |
| Troy Aikman | 164 | 1.59 | 59 | 35.98 | 30 | 18.29 | 75 | 45.73 | 19 | 11.59 | 22 | 13.41 |
| Ben Roethlisberger | 131 | 1.30 | 39 | 29.77 | 27 | 20.61 | 65 | 49.62 | 5 | 3.82 | 2 | 1.53 |
| Tom Brady | 207 | 0.68 | 60 | 28.99 | 63 | 30.43 | 84 | 40.58 | 11 | 5.31 | 8 | 3.86 |
| Steve Young | 141 | 0.66 | 61 | 43.26 | 23 | 16.31 | 57 | 40.43 | 16 | 11.35 | 19 | 13.48 |
| Brett Favre | 274 | 0.18 | 102 | 37.23 | 60 | 21.90 | 112 | 40.88 | 23 | 8.39 | 15 | 5.47 |
| Peyton Manning | 200 | -0.06 | 78 | 39.00 | 41 | 20.50 | 81 | 40.50 | 12 | 6.00 | 13 | 6.50 |
| John Elway | 239 | -0.11 | 77 | 32.22 | 67 | 28.03 | 95 | 39.75 | 22 | 9.21 | 16 | 6.69 |
| Steve McNair | 117 | -0.88 | 52 | 44.44 | 32 | 27.35 | 33 | 28.21 | 1 | 0.85 | 1 | 0.85 |
| Jake Delhomme | 93 | -0.96 | 32 | 34.41 | 22 | 23.66 | 39 | 41.94 | 14 | 15.05 | 4 | 4.30 |
| Warren Moon | 107 | -1.13 | 42 | 39.25 | 22 | 20.56 | 43 | 40.19 | 7 | 6.54 | 3 | 2.80 |
| Drew Brees | 81 | -1.24 | 36 | 44.44 | 26 | 32.10 | 19 | 23.46 | 3 | 3.70 | 4 | 4.94 |
| Tony Romo | 45 | -1.36 | 22 | 48.89 | 10 | 22.22 | 13 | 28.89 | 4 | 8.89 | 6 | 13.33 |
| Donovan McNabb | 187 | -1.56 | 89 | 47.59 | 32 | 17.11 | 66 | 35.29 | 15 | 8.02 | 4 | 2.14 |
| Matt Hasselbeck | 133 | -1.77 | 61 | 45.86 | 30 | 22.56 | 42 | 31.58 | 14 | 10.53 | 6 | 4.51 |
| Philip Rivers | 77 | -1.77 | 39 | 50.65 | 20 | 25.97 | 18 | 23.38 | 3 | 3.90 | 0 | 0.00 |
| Eli Manning | 72 | -2.26 | 40 | 55.56 | 16 | 22.22 | 16 | 22.22 | 3 | 4.17 | 0 | 0.00 |
| Mark Brunell | 113 | -3.29 | 62 | 54.87 | 21 | 18.58 | 30 | 26.55 | 11 | 9.73 | 2 | 1.77 |
| Dan Marino | 205 | -5.62 | 128 | 62.44 | 32 | 15.61 | 45 | 21.95 | 48 | 23.41 | 12 | 5.85 |
| Dave Krieg | 105 | -5.62 | 68 | 64.76 | 18 | 17.14 | 19 | 18.10 | 17 | 16.19 | 1 | 0.95 |
| Randall Cunningham | 125 | -6.58 | 88 | 70.40 | 14 | 11.20 | 23 | 18.40 | 14 | 11.20 | 2 | 1.60 |
Out of all-time great quarterbacks, Dan Marino was behind the eight ball a great bit. The most staggering number is that 23.4% of his drives were started with at least a three score deficit. The average is only 8.5%. Marino had to play from behind so much, you wonder how much of an impact that can have on a quarterback's stats when they are put in a position to force throws you would not often attempt if the game was closer.
That brings me to two final tables for interceptions. In the first you can see the number of interceptions per drive. The Avg. LOS represents the average line of scrimmage for where the interception was thrown. Avg. Score is the average point margin when the interception was thrown. Not surprisingly the average was -4.37. Quarterbacks throw interceptions from behind more often than not. You can see that breakdown of interceptions thrown from behind, tied or with the lead. I also was able to get the number of red zone interceptions thrown by each quarterback.
The second table is for interceptions thrown with a three score deficit or worse, a deficit of one score, a deficit of one score in the fourth quarter, and finally the number of interceptions thrown when the game was tied in the fourth quarter and overtime.
| QB | Games | Drives | INTs | INTs/Dr | Avg. LOS | Avg. Score | Red Zone | % | Behind | % | Tied | % | Ahead | % |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Drew Brees | 7 | 81 | 2 | 0.025 | own 47 | -9.00 | 0 | 0.0 | 1 | 50.0 | 1 | 50.0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Tony Romo | 4 | 45 | 2 | 0.044 | own 49 | -9.00 | 0 | 0.0 | 2 | 100.0 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Matt Hasselbeck | 11 | 133 | 9 | 0.068 | own 40 | -0.78 | 0 | 0.0 | 5 | 55.6 | 1 | 11.1 | 3 | 33.3 |
| Aaron Rodgers | 4 | 42 | 3 | 0.071 | opp 42 | 9.33 | 1 | 33.3 | 0 | 0.0 | 1 | 33.3 | 2 | 66.7 |
| Randall Cunningham | 10 | 125 | 9 | 0.072 | opp 47 | -8.00 | 3 | 33.3 | 8 | 88.9 | 0 | 0.0 | 1 | 11.1 |
| Tom Brady | 19 | 207 | 16 | 0.077 | opp 46 | -4.44 | 4 | 25.0 | 10 | 62.5 | 2 | 12.5 | 4 | 25.0 |
| Joe Montana | 23 | 248 | 21 | 0.085 | fifty | 0.29 | 5 | 23.8 | 11 | 52.4 | 1 | 4.8 | 9 | 42.9 |
| Dave Krieg | 11 | 105 | 9 | 0.086 | own 45 | -9.44 | 0 | 0.0 | 6 | 66.7 | 2 | 22.2 | 1 | 11.1 |
| John Elway | 22 | 239 | 21 | 0.088 | own 44 | -6.10 | 2 | 9.5 | 10 | 47.6 | 5 | 23.8 | 6 | 28.6 |
| Donovan McNabb | 16 | 187 | 17 | 0.091 | own 47 | -3.00 | 3 | 17.6 | 10 | 58.8 | 2 | 11.8 | 5 | 29.4 |
| Steve Young | 15 | 141 | 13 | 0.092 | opp 42 | -6.38 | 1 | 7.7 | 11 | 84.6 | 1 | 7.7 | 1 | 7.7 |
| Steve McNair | 10 | 117 | 11 | 0.094 | opp 49 | 0.27 | 2 | 18.2 | 3 | 27.3 | 5 | 45.5 | 3 | 27.3 |
| Peyton Manning | 19 | 200 | 19 | 0.095 | opp 40 | -5.53 | 4 | 21.1 | 11 | 57.9 | 0 | 0.0 | 8 | 42.1 |
| Kurt Warner | 13 | 144 | 14 | 0.097 | own 49 | -0.43 | 2 | 14.3 | 7 | 50.0 | 2 | 14.3 | 5 | 35.7 |
| Eli Manning | 7 | 72 | 7 | 0.097 | own 40 | -8.57 | 1 | 14.3 | 5 | 71.4 | 1 | 14.3 | 1 | 14.3 |
| Mark Brunell | 11 | 113 | 11 | 0.097 | opp 48 | -6.45 | 2 | 18.2 | 8 | 72.7 | 2 | 18.2 | 1 | 9.1 |
| Troy Aikman | 16 | 164 | 17 | 0.104 | own 43 | -3.59 | 1 | 5.9 | 12 | 70.6 | 1 | 5.9 | 4 | 23.5 |
| Ben Roethlisberger | 12 | 131 | 14 | 0.107 | opp 47 | -0.71 | 2 | 14.3 | 5 | 35.7 | 4 | 28.6 | 5 | 35.7 |
| Jake Delhomme | 8 | 93 | 10 | 0.108 | opp 43 | -11.60 | 2 | 20.0 | 9 | 90.0 | 0 | 0.0 | 1 | 10.0 |
| Brett Favre | 24 | 274 | 30 | 0.109 | own 39 | -7.17 | 1 | 3.3 | 19 | 63.3 | 7 | 23.3 | 4 | 13.3 |
| Philip Rivers | 7 | 77 | 9 | 0.117 | opp 49 | -2.67 | 0 | 0.0 | 6 | 66.7 | 0 | 0.0 | 3 | 33.3 |
| Dan Marino | 18 | 205 | 24 | 0.117 | opp 49 | -11.04 | 3 | 12.5 | 19 | 79.2 | 1 | 4.2 | 4 | 16.7 |
| Warren Moon | 10 | 107 | 14 | 0.131 | own 47 | -0.86 | 2 | 14.3 | 5 | 35.7 | 3 | 21.4 | 6 | 42.9 |
| Jim Kelly | 17 | 195 | 28 | 0.144 | own 48 | 0.07 | 4 | 14.3 | 11 | 39.3 | 6 | 21.4 | 11 | 39.3 |
| QB | INTs | 3+ SCR DEF | % | 1 SCR DEF | % | 1 SCR DEF, 4Q | % | TIED, 4Q/OT | % |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Drew Brees | 2 | 1 | 50.0 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Dave Krieg | 9 | 4 | 44.4 | 2 | 22.2 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Dan Marino | 24 | 10 | 41.7 | 8 | 33.3 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Jake Delhomme | 10 | 4 | 40.0 | 3 | 30.0 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| John Elway | 21 | 7 | 33.3 | 1 | 4.8 | 0 | 0.0 | 1 | 4.8 |
| Eli Manning | 7 | 2 | 28.6 | 1 | 14.3 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Troy Aikman | 17 | 4 | 23.5 | 5 | 29.4 | 1 | 5.9 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Brett Favre | 30 | 7 | 23.3 | 8 | 26.7 | 3 | 10.0 | 3 | 10.0 |
| Peyton Manning | 19 | 3 | 15.8 | 4 | 21.1 | 1 | 5.3 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Steve Young | 13 | 2 | 15.4 | 6 | 46.2 | 2 | 15.4 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Tom Brady | 16 | 2 | 12.5 | 6 | 37.5 | 2 | 12.5 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Randall Cunningham | 9 | 1 | 11.1 | 2 | 22.2 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Warren Moon | 14 | 1 | 7.1 | 2 | 14.3 | 0 | 0.0 | 1 | 7.1 |
| Kurt Warner | 14 | 1 | 7.1 | 4 | 28.6 | 1 | 7.1 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Jim Kelly | 28 | 2 | 7.1 | 4 | 14.3 | 2 | 7.1 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Donovan McNabb | 17 | 1 | 5.9 | 6 | 35.3 | 2 | 11.8 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Joe Montana | 21 | 1 | 4.8 | 7 | 33.3 | 3 | 14.3 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Ben Roethlisberger | 14 | 0 | 0.0 | 2 | 14.3 | 0 | 0.0 | 1 | 7.1 |
| Aaron Rodgers | 3 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Mark Brunell | 11 | 0 | 0.0 | 2 | 18.2 | 1 | 9.1 | 1 | 9.1 |
| Philip Rivers | 9 | 0 | 0.0 | 5 | 55.6 | 1 | 11.1 | 0 | 0.0 |
| Steve McNair | 11 | 0 | 0.0 | 3 | 27.3 | 2 | 18.2 | 2 | 18.2 |
| Matt Hasselbeck | 9 | 0 | 0.0 | 5 | 55.6 | 3 | 33.3 | 1 | 11.1 |
| Tony Romo | 2 | 0 | 0.0 | 1 | 50.0 | 1 | 50.0 | 0 | 0.0 |
Is it surprising Brady, Montana and Manning rank in the top 5 in percentage of their passes intercepted in the red zone? Or that Montana (5) has the highest number of red zone interceptions? Bengals fans probably would say that number should be 6, referring to Lewis Billups dropping Montana's interception in the end zone in the fourth quarter of the Super Bowl. Things that make you go hmm....
Jake Delhomme's pick parade against the Cardinals gives him the lowest average score margin for his interceptions at -11.60. Dan Marino is right there with him at -11.04. Only Rodgers (small sample size), Montana, McNair and Kelly averaged interceptions with a lead. Out of the experienced quarterbacks, Montana, Moon and Manning all threw at least 42% of their picks with the lead, yet only Montana has the winning record. No one averaged more INTs/drive than Jim Kelly.
Something that is not surprising: Brett Favre throwing 6 interceptions in the 4th quarter/overtime with a one score deficit or tie. Those must have been fun.
I crammed to get this done before the Super Bowl, so I regret not having more quarterbacks included, especially those with 6-7 starts (Kosar, Sanchez, O'Donnell, Flacco, etc.). Perhaps during the off-season I can come back with a follow-up that will include more players, and even more detailed situational stats such as third downs and actual passing stat splits based on the score margin. I could find the answer to a question like "which QB's running game did the best job converting 3rd & 1 runs?"
Any other questions you would like to see answered?
This entry was posted on Thursday, February 3rd, 2011 at 9:08 am and is filed under Best/Worst Ever, History, Quarterbacks, Statgeekery. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

Very interesting. But I'm mostly curious about where you found the old gamebooks. Those on the NFL site don't go before 2000. Congratulations again for the awesome post.
Claude
Fantastic post, Scott. Great to have all this data available in one post. I'd be curious what's the best fit formula for expected points in a game based on the variable of average starting field position? Same goes for average number of drives, and maybe using both as inputs. Interesting stuff, indeed.
Imbroglio, shoot me an e-mail at smk_42@yahoo.com
Chase, I'd like to see that too. I was actually getting towards that direction by collecting the average field position for every game, but I didn't have a chance to add up the drives and points for each game as well.
One thing that made me feel good is that, of the QB's you chose, Brees is the best at protecting the ball. Now, if we could just stop somebody....
Isn't Brady 14-5 and not 14-4. I know it is a small difference. Broncos '05, colts '06, giants '07, ravens '09, jet '10.
Wow, outstanding! Makes sense that Eli's ranked fourth in % Drives While Trailing. Nearly 80 percent of his drives were playing from behind or while tied. The only three drives with a three score deficit were in his playoff debut, a horrible 23-0 performance at home vs. Carolina. All four of his postseason wins were comebacks. February 3...Happy Anniversary Giants Fans!
Great effort. Very interesting.
As a Fins fan the numbers on Marino seem to mirror what my eyes and memories were telling me.
Uhoh, you're right. Last thing I did was copy that table over from a different file I keep and I guess I never updated Brady and Hasselbeck for this year's divisional rounds.
But everything after that is up to date through the conference championship games.
Scott, can you post stats on expected points from drives that start <80+ yards, <70+ yards, etc. to get an idea how field position plays into scoring points?
Scott,
Thanks for another terrific piece! Dan Marino was behind by 3+ scores almost a quarter of the time he started a drive in the playoffs. Now, part of being behind by 3+ scores is not scoring enough to be closer... but not scoring doesn't give the defense license to collapse. Joe Montana could have been behind by 3+ scores plenty of times--------but his defense usually wouldn't ever allow it.
And then there's the stat that Marino NEVER threw a 4th Quarter or OT pick if the game was tied or within 1 score. He wasn't blowing games. If anything, he was answering the bell late in games IF the game was manageable. Seattle in 1983. Seattle in 1999. San Diego in 1994. Kansas City in 1990. Cleveland in 1985.
Favre's 6 INTs in similar situations adds substance to what I had already thought of him-------he was a careless passer who ruined games whose outcome was still in the balance. He wasn't always like this. I don't know when he turned into a guy who just spit into the wind-------maybe it was the Rams game when he threw 5 picks (or was it 6?).... The OT pick he threw vs Philadelphia is still THE worst, most careless pass I have EVER seen thrown in the NFL.
Scott, Great post. It was even better than I thought when you mentioned it a couple of months ago and I thought it would be about the best ever then. The Manning yards per drive is about what I would have expected, although I was even slightly surprised to see that he was 2nd to only Rodgers (on a much smaller sample). Unfortunately his average starting field position also isn't a huge surprise but it is great to see just how much of an advantage some teams have gained over the years.
A couple of thoughts on what I think might be interesting-since you asked.
What about using the expected points/drive charts to show how much each teams pts/drive was most likely effected by starting field position. This is a pretty easy add. For example, lets say the average starting field position is 30 in the playoffs Manning would show getting hurt by about 0.18 pts/drive and Brady would show be helped by 0.11/drive.
I think it would be intersting to combine the drive stats, field position, etc with some of the other recent posts by Neil and Chase showing help received and points scored by expectation. The other articles were good at utilizing SOS, defensive support, home field, etc. Would be interesting to tie them all together. Not exactly sure the easiest way to do that off hand but will think about it.
Finally - i think an adjusted INT rate based on score would be interesting. I'm actually pretty surprised this isn't something that has started making its rounds in the stats community more often. It's clearly important as you show you here. I started some work on it last summer using play by play data but got sidetracked off of it. I think the biggest reason why INT rates are typically so random is because they are so much more dependent on situation than they are players but those situations very rarely get looked at.
Very great article!
"Favre's 6 INTs in similar situations adds substance to what I had already thought of him-------he was a careless passer who ruined games whose outcome was still in the balance. He wasn't always like this. I don't know when he turned into a guy who just spit into the wind-------maybe it was the Rams game when he threw 5 picks (or was it 6?).... The OT pick he threw vs Philadelphia is still THE worst, most careless pass I have EVER seen thrown in the NFL."
his one vs New Orleans in the NFC Champ game was at least as bad as the Philly one
As an Indianapolis native and Colts fan, this post saddens me
But...but..but...I thought the team didn't matter? Only QBs win games if they have the mythical power of clutchiness!!!!!!11!!!!!!!
Great article guys, as always.
@Josh - I actually feel like Favre has gotten a very raw detail on that INT against the Saints. I put the blame of that on Childress. Min got into "FG range" whatever that means with plenty of time left to make it a chip shot field goal the way they were moving the ball. Instead they called some very conservative play calls and wasted time. then when they got a penalty that pushed them out of field goal range (how are you really in FG range if a 5 yard penalty pushes you out of it) on 3rd down. Brett Favre now had to make a play because his coach took away the teams options earlier. Yes, the pass was bad and was out of control but I am sure the whole team felt the game was theres to win and now they were trying desperately to get that back. Anyway just my little rant on that series of plays.
Buzz, where can you find a reliable expected points based on FP chart at? I saw one on AdvancedNFLStats, but you couldn't really tell what the point values were.
I can't find a site that has a table showing those values either unfortunately. I thought i had seen one before but it must have always been general graphs, or I can't find it right now. The good thing though is that field position value is pretty linear at that part of the field at a rate of about .05 pts per yard. At least according to the play by play data that I ran quickly this evening. Eyeballing advancednflstats and FO's charts they would tend to agree. I could pull together some more exact data points over more seasons.
Scott, great thread and thanks for all of that research. Those INT. stats really point out how some guys can put them out of mind and go back to throwing TD passes, and how some seem to let it affect them later. Kudos to Montana for still helping his team to win 8 Championships ( 4 Conf. and 4 League), Kelly for helping his team to win 4 Champ. ( all Conf.), and P. Manning and Favre for 3 Champs. each.
As for Marino, being down by 3 scores wouldn't effect him as much as would some others. There are some on here (if not all) that call him the best passer ever. And don't forget about the way he helped his team to beat so many very good teams in the Regular season. He put it to the '83 Niners IN S.F., the Bears in '85, and I'll never forget about what he did to those Broncos teams in the '98 and '99 Reg. season games. He hit them for 4 TD passes and a Passer Rating of 115.6 after being DOWN by 3 SCORES in a 31-21 thumping in the '98 Reg. season game. Then he played his usual Playoff game a couple of weeks later and led his "O" to only 3 pts. and ended the game with a Passer Rating of only 65.5 But, he came back in the 1st game of the '99 Reg. season at Denver and led his "O" to 31 more points and a 38-21 win. Dan was "MONEY" in the Reg. season!!
At #18... none of that winning ever happened in 'impossible to win' games (see Chase's post about QB post season records and the Simpson Paradox and the buckets he set up)... there's this thing about 'game situations' you might want to check out.
At #19... I don't think Marino 'put it to' many teams in the regular season when the game situation was impossible. He was 4-23 as a starter in the regular season when Miami was outrushed by over 130 yards. NOBODY 'puts it' to anyone with any regularity under those conditions---in the regular season and NEVER in the post season (other than Marino 1985... and Marino needed help from Marty Schottenheimer's yellow stripe).
And it's simply not true that Denver led Miami by 3 scores in the 1998 regular season game. Denver led 10-0. Miami scored 28 of the next 31 points to lead 28-13 enroute to the 31-21 win. Miami's defense allowed 58 yards rushing. Marino was quite good when his supports helped to keep a game manageable-------post OR regular season. Miami allowed 250 rushing yards in the 1998 playoff game at Denver. Going back at least the last 60 years, no QB wins (other than Marino in 1985) when that's happened.
Sean, say what you want, but I think Chase's Post-season "adjusted" rating of 45 for Marino speaks volumes about Dan's "VALUE" to his team in the playoffs. When your QB has a Post-season Value of only 45, your team probably has a losing record in the playoffs, and that is exactly what the Dolphins had with Marino as their QB.
At #21...
Bob S., did you miss where Chase said that rating system doesn't consider game situations like team support-------or are you ignoring it on purpose? I have come to the conclusion that you don't want to be aware of anything more than what you already have considered.
You gotta love the foolishness and ignorance of the media's reaction to Ben Roethlisberger's performance in SB 45. He is being painted as someone who was on the doorstep of immortality with 'HIS' 2 SB wins and going for a 3rd-------but because he played 'poorly' to them, he has scuffed up his legacy.
Do these people realize Roethlisberger has played this way before in the playoffs AND Super Bowl? Or are they blind to it because the TEAM had his back and won in the past despite the fact?
I understand the average Joe being naive about this stuff, but how do people who cover the NFL for a living act so dopey? It's no wonder the average Joe can often be ignorant about this---------they're reading the dopey professionals' muck and taking it to the bank.
Had Rashard Mendenhall NOT coughed up the ball to start the 4th Quarter, there's no telling how this game ends. Pittsburgh had momentum and we might actually have seen Aaron Rodgers playing from behind for once in this game. Roethlisberger could have played no better than he actually did------in a Steelers' WIN--------an today they'd be cannonizing Big Ben because HE won HIS 3rd SB. Instead, they just want to shoot him OUT of a cannon.
Absurd.
At # 15...
I think Favre gets a bit of a rough deal with that Saints' pick, too. Favre's INT vs the Saints stole them of the opportunity to attempt a 55-yard FG, supposedly. That is if the line of scrimmage remained the same had Favre not ran for some yardage or completed a pass elsewhere on that play.
The penalty on that drive really hurt them. Favre put the icing on the cake with his pick. I think the INT vs Philly was worse by far. I'd recommend anyone go watch it again if they're not sure. Your jaw will drop. Mine still does.
Bob, being down 3 scores in the playoffs is going to be tough on anyone. Few teams ever come back from that against top competition. Marino was able to do it against the 85 Browns (18 points).
As for beating up a team in the regular season and then failing to do the same in the playoffs, I'm sure that's happened plenty of times to other QBs. Just look at Tom Brady's last 3 playoff losses for example (07 Giants, 09 Ravens, 10 Jets). If you put the blame on Marino for his 98 Broncos swing, I'd suggest looking up some other passers in the same situation.
Re: Roethlisberger - something interesting on him. He's had 6 drives in his playoff career where he's trailed by 3 scores. That includes one last night. He ended up scoring a TD on 5 of them. Pretty good job of trying to rally back from his mistakes.
And it's amazing that he ended up with a chance to make what might have been the most legendary drive in SB (NFL?) history last night, considering it was the same drive he made a year ago against the Packers.
In 2009 against GB, he was down 6, 2:01 left, 86 yards to go, and pulled it off.
Last night, he was down 6, 1:59 left, 87 yards to go, and only moved it 20 yards.
Not just that, but last year he faced a 4th & 7 at his own 22 and was able to find Holmes for a big gain. This time, he has a 4th & 5 at his own 33 and can't hit Wallace, who caught the game-winner last year.
To quote Bill Cowher, "sometimes you win, sometimes you lose". Very long TD drives in the last two minutes to win games don't grow on trees, and Ben's been fortunate to lead a couple in recent years.
Re: Favre - what makes the Tracy Porter INT so bad is that he had a lot of room to just scramble for yards so they can kick the ~50 yard FG (they had one timeout left). That pass was careless and unnecessary.