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Planes, turnovers, and Adrian Petersons
I was tooling around my buddy JC's sabernomics blog the other day and came across this nifty paragraph in the FAQ, where JC simultaneously apologizes for and absolves himself of some occasional sloppiness in his writing:
I like blogging because it is a good way to post my thoughts quickly. If I proofread my posts as much as I wanted to, I wouldn’t post nearly as often. As George Stigler once said, “If you never miss a plane, you’re spending too much time at the airport.”
The Stigler quote is just a variation of Voltaire's "the perfect is the enemy of the good," but it hits home with me because I'm an incorrigible unreasonably-early-at-the-airport guy. I do spend too much time in airports, and I know it.
And then on Sunday I watched Adrian Peterson fumble the football and the announcers say, "he's trying to do too much." And he was. And, though I don't watch enough of him to say this definitively, I'm guessing he often does. He has more fumbles in the last two seasons than any other running back in the league. But that must be tied to his being so damn good. You can't do more without trying to do more. And it's mighty tough to find the line between more and too much.
The parallel isn't exact, but...
missed planes ---> fumbles
me ---> regular RBs
time spent at airports ---> all that yardage Adrian Peterson is gaining that regular RBs are not
What if Adrian Peterson's life literally depended on him not fumbling at all --- not even once --- during the 2009 season. How many yards do you think he'd gain? Do you think he'd gain a thousand? I don't. No way. Remember, one fumble and he's dead.
If you buy that, then you're agreeing that Peterson's willingness to fumble occasionally is worth about 800 or so yards a year at least. And even after you subtract the damage caused by his half-dozen-or-so fumbles, that's a net gain. The point is, the optimal fumble rate for Peterson (or any other RB) isn't zero. Zero is such a draconian standard that it can't possibly be worth what it costs.
And the same is true with offenses in general. If Stigler is a football fan, he'd say, "If you never throw an interception, you're taking too many sacks, throwing too many balls out of bounds, and getting too many four yard gains on 3rd-and-9."
So if zero is not the optimal turnover rate, then what is? I don't know, and I don't think it's likely that I or anyone else will come up with a study that will convince anyone. But here is a little evidence of the general idea I'm trying to convey.
We all know that good offenses turn the ball over less than bad offenses, right? Here's the data on all teams from 2000--2007:
+----------+-------+------+ | points | teams | to | +----------+-------+------+ | 274- | 50 | 32.5 | | 275--324 | 72 | 30.8 | | 325--374 | 59 | 26.9 | | 375--424 | 46 | 26.8 | | 425+ | 27 | 24.2 | +----------+-------+------+
So yes. Bad offenses have more turnovers. But that's looking at it backwards. If you turn the ball over, you didn't score on that possession.
But what if we just looked at possessions that did not result in points?
+----------+-------+------+------+--------+ | points | teams | to | punt | to_pct | +----------+-------+------+------+--------+ | 274- | 50 | 32.5 | 88.8 | 0.269 | | 275--324 | 72 | 30.8 | 81.7 | 0.274 | | 325--374 | 59 | 26.9 | 78.2 | 0.255 | | 375--424 | 46 | 26.8 | 70.3 | 0.276 | | 425+ | 27 | 24.2 | 61.4 | 0.282 | +----------+-------+------+------+--------+
The last column is turnovers divided by (turnovers plus punts). This table basically says that good offensive teams and bad offensive teams turn the ball over on roughly the same percentage of their non-scoring possessions. But to the extent that there is a difference, the best offensive teams actually turn the ball over on a greater percentage of their non-scoring possessions than the worst offensive teams do.
Here is another look. I took all teams since the merger and I computed their points scored divided by league average, and also their [turnovers divided by (TOs plus punts)], divided by league average. Just for ease of conversation, let's call a team's TO/(TO+punt) its "turnovers per nonscoring possesion."
So I grouped the teams into three groups: (1) turnovers per non-scoring possession less than 90% of league average, (2) turnovers per non-scoring possession between 90% and 110% of league average, and (3) turnovers per non-scoring possession greater than 110% of league average.
GROUP (1) teams, on average, scored points at 98.9% of league average.
GROUP (2) teams, on average, scored points at 99.6% of league average.
GROUP (3) teams, on average, scored points at 101.7% of league average.
The point is: if you want to be a good offense, it's just as important --- maybe more important --- to avoid punts as it is to avoid turnovers.
And maybe part of the reason bad offenses are bad is because they've got their turnover tolerance set too low. They're too willing to punt and not willing enough to risk turnovers. To punt is to spend time at the airport. It won't give you that punch-in-the-gut feeling that missing a flight will, but it will slowly rob you of some productive and/or enjoyable hours.
The key, of course, is to adjust your turnover tolerance depending on the situation. If you've got a multi-million dollar business meeting to get to, or a 4-point lead with a minute left in the game, don't miss that plane no matter how much time you have to spend eating Cinnabons at the Hudson News. If you're on vacation and there's a flight every 45 minutes to your destination, then you can cut it closer.
Certainly teams and players know this. I'm interested in what the optimal turnover rate is on, say, first-and-10 at your own 30 on the opening drive of the game. Do you think teams are generally close to it?
ADDENDUM: Brian Burke had some similar thoughts last week, specifically pertaining to the Redskins.
This entry was posted on Thursday, December 25th, 2008 at 6:06 pm and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

The data itself is very interesting, but I think you are looking at this topic backwards. A bad offense can not afford many turnovers, hence they must try especially hard to avoid them. If this year's Lions turn it over 3 times there is little to no chance they can win the game, and thus it is critical that the bad offense avoid turnovers at all cost. On the other hand, lets look at the 2007 Patriots offense. If they turned it over 3 times, they could still win the game because they would be able to score on almost all of their other possessions. Therefore, there is no reason for them to stress turnover-free football as much as the Lions. Hence, bad offenses HAVE to prevent turnovers, where good offenses do not. The "turnovers per non-scoring possession" rates are a result of the offense being bad or good (for the reasons described above) and NOT the cause of the offense being good or bad, as you seem to imply.
Andrew brings up a good point about cause and effect, but I still Doug is onto something here. This validates what I always thought about the 2000-2001 Rams: they led the league in turnovers, but still scored over 500 points both years. Would they have been just as successful running the ball and throwing 3-yard checkdowns? I don't know, but I doubt it.
In general, coaches appear to be overly concerned with avoiding mistakes. Interception rates are currently the lowest in NFL history, while yards per completion are also the lowest in 30+ years. More and more teams simply dink and dunk their way down the field with a plethora of low-risk plays. I would love to see more research about this from Doug.
Even if it is a good strategy, low-risk football is boring football, in my opinion.
I'll add this--good or bad on offense, a turnover is almost always worse than a punt--because of where the other team gets the ball. Which are most common--INT returns for TD's, fumble returns for TD's, or punt returns for TD's? (Somebody run the data, but I would bet INT's.) Unless it is a non-returned INT on a bomb, a punt gives you more chance to win the game than the turnover. Now, we all like to criticize a coach for the draw play that the defense was waiting on on a 3rd & long, or the 3 yd. checkdown, etc. but they are generally playing the percentages. Of course, the score/time left in the game may say that the coach/team was trying to keep from getting beat by 4 TD's instead of 3.
On the topic of Peterson, I think he ought to focus on ball security. (I have NO INTEREST AT ALL in the Vikes). With RB fumble rates league-wide pretty low, I'd say that he shouldn't fumble more than 3 times a year. As mentioned by Andrew in #1, the Vikes are a mediocre offense who need ball security to maximize points, possessions, and ToP. (IMO as a Saints fan, Reggie Bush suffers from trying to do too much, resulting in lost yardage and fumbles. Pierre Thomas, on the other hand, is ALWAYS fighting for more yds, pushing the pile forward, and has 1 fumble on almost 300 career touches (rush, rec., and returns).)
If you've got a good defense, turnovers are also not as big of a deal as if you're defense is terrible. If you are the 2008 Detroit Lions, a turnover is basically giving away points. If you're the Steelers or the Ravens, you stand a good chance of forcing a punt.
Do those point totals include only offensive points or special teams and defensive scores as well?
Where are the stock market analogies?
"Low risk, low reward; high risk, high reward"
"Buy low, sell high"
And my least favorite, the oft-untrue "It takes money to make money"
???
Risk/Reward: The less willing you are to expose the ball flor potential danger (in a calculated risk sense), the less freely you will gain as many yards as if you were a bit riskier on offense.
Buy low/sell high: Create "cheap" takeaways on defense, and make the other team earn the turnovers that you do commit.
Takes money to make money: You need the ball to score. If you have the ball, you are in shape to potentially score. You might turn it over, but I'm guessing that successful teams don't really worry about turnovers all that much. Similarly, successful investors try to make the smartest "scores" they can in the market, not really worrying about the occasional bust. Good offenses know they will turn the ball over now and then, but they are in it to score, not to worry about turnovers.
Also, another thought... "the costliness of a turnover or a punt" is more of a function of the quality of your team's defense, rather than anything to do with your offense. If your defense never gives up a first down, you can afford more turnovers than if the average drive for your opponents is 75 yards.
Hey Adam,
I hear you on missing the fun in the NFL.
Interesting (and timely) note on the '07 Patriots -- they had 15 turnovers, the second fewest in a 16-game season in modern history. The '90 Giants hold the record with 14 turnovers; the '08 Dolphins currently have 12 TO with one game left.
Elite RBs holding onto the ball is a relatively recent trend in the NFL. Marshall Faulk, during his 99-01 MVP-level run, fumbled a total of 5 times. But before that, especially in the 70s and 80s when guys carried the ball with one hand, fumbles were incredibly common.
Eric Dickerson fumbled 27 times during his first two seasons, which no one -- not even Adrian Peterson -- could get away with today. Walter Payton fumbled 11 times in 14 games during his 1977 MVP season.
I have little doubt that runners decrease their productivity in other areas by getting to the airport too early. It would be interesting to see if there's an optimal number of fumbles that has any statistical significance. I suspect this would be very difficult to test, since fumble totals have changed so much in the past decade or so. It's unusual now for more than one RB to top six fumbles in a season.
I don't know how useful this really is, but I rate RBs every year, and here are the fumble totals for my top-rated back every year during the 16-game schedule. A clear difference is apparent between the 80s and 90s, then again between the 90s and the 00s.
78 W.Payton - 5
79 E.Campbell - 8
80 E.Campbell - 4
81 B.Sims - 9
82* M.Allen - 3
83 E.Dickerson - 13
84 E.Dickerson - 14
85 M.Allen - 3
86 E.Dickerson - 12
87* H.Walker - 4
88 E.Dickerson - 5
89 B.Sanders - 10
90 B.Sanders - 4
91 T.Thomas - 5
92 E.Smith - 4
93 E.Smith - 4
94 B.Sanders - 0
95 E.Smith - 7
96 T.Davis - 5
97 B.Sanders - 2
98 T.Davis - 1
99 M.Faulk - 2
00 M.Faulk - 0
01 M.Faulk - 3
02 P.Holmes - 1
03 L.Tomlinson - 2
04 T.Barber - 5
05 T.Barber - 1
06 L.Tomlinson - 2
07 L.Tomlinson - 0
08 D.Williams - 0 (through Week 16)
It is apparent that young players fumble much more than veterans.
Brad, you might be interested in this post:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=522
where I look at changes in fumbling rates for running backs over the last forty years.
I buy the heart of the article, but not the AP example. For RBs ball security is largely an innate skill. It's learnable (Tiki Barber comes to mind), but backs usually are who they have been fumble wise. There are DeAngelo Williams' and Joseph Addai's (fumble less than 1 per 200 carries) and there are your Peterson's (who has fumbled more than 1 per 50 carries).
Focusing on total non-scoring possession seems to be deliberately avoiding the meaningful measures. Taking fumbles as a % of offensive plays would be a pretty direct measure of how fumbling relates to offense quality. Taking turnovers (inluding interceptions) as a % of total drives would be interesting, if you look at the spread rather than the means, since it would show whether there are teams that go all out & either score or turnover vs stodgy teams.
I don;t really get the significance of looking only at failed possessions.
One OK thing : Steve Owens had a rep in the 1970s as a careful, 2 handed runner. His fumble rate per possession was slightly higher than APs.
Hmm, I've also wondered if trying too hard results in more injuries. Trying to eke out that extra two yards while stumbling and off balance seems like prime injury time too.
Perhaps this can still be explained without resorting to "trying too hard" though. Good teams are more likely to be on parts of the field where an interception/fumble is less costly, like that weird outside-field-goal-range-but-too-close-to-get-much-out-of-a-punt area. Bad teams will more likely be spending time on their own side of the field, where a turnover is more likely to give the opponents an easy score.
Take an obvious try-too-hard situation, 3rd and long. If I have the Colts, I'm not all that uncomfortable about letting Manning throw it. He may throw the occasional pick, but he's also got a good chance of converting. If I have the Lions... Well, even if the odds of an interception are equal, the odds of converting certainly aren't. And with the Lions, I'm probably at my own 20 yard line still, where with the Colts, I may be around midfield. etc. etc.
I think you have it backwards as well.
Missed planes -> Fumbles
Time spent at airports-> Times spent not carrying the ball
It's not really perfect is enemy of good. It's security trade off. If you kneel on every offensive play you have basically 0 chance of turnovers, but you are also unlikely to win (unless you're the 2004 Bears).
This argument is a bit like the one that emerges from those insufferable articles bemoaning Adam Dunn's strikeouts -- "if only he put the ball in play more often, think of how many more hits he'd have!" Well, no. Adam Dunn putting the ball in play more often would require him changing the hitting style that gets him 40+ HR... He may hit for a higher average with the new approach, but is it worth the incumbent loss of power that comes with a new, contact-centric approach at the plate?
The same goes for offenses and turnovers. Ask Peterson or the Greatest Show on Turf Rams to be more careful with the ball, and they could do it... But it would require a fundamental change in the way they approach the game on every play, and would likely be a tradeoff that isn't worth making. If we could cherry-pick bad outcomes (strikeouts, turnovers) ex post facto and say "let's have a do-over where you play more conservatively," then you could say somebody like Peterson would be even better if he cut down on his mistakes. But AD takes the same approach to a run when he busts a long gain as a run when he fumbles, so there'd be a cost involved in being more conservative. Unfortunately, this concept of trade-offs is something a lot of fans don't get.
Neil your thinking is a little flawed I think. You dont have to ask Peterson not to run hard, try to break long runs. You can coach his mechanics of carrying the ball without forcing him to chance his whole running style. Tiki changed the way he held the ball and his fumbles dropped off and his production increased a bit.
One thing people are overlooking is a veteran's understanding of and feel for the game as opposed to a rookie's. Barry sanders fumbled 25 times in his first 4 seasons (this included 2 of his 3 lowest totals for carries in a season). Over his last 6 seasons he fumbled only 16 times. I Think that once a RB gets a more experience in the NFL he has a better feel for when he is about to take a big hit and knows when a DB is going to go for a strip.